Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id WAA23691 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:37:18 GMT To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:35:22 -0800 From: "Scott Chase" <hemidactylus@my-Deja.com> Message-ID: <MPKKLEBEDILIPBAA@my-deja.com> X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: RE: What are memes made of? X-Sender-Ip: 209.240.200.96 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Length: 2019 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
--On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:16:06 Robin Faichney wrote: >On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Richard Brodie wrote: >>Joe wrote: >> >><<When the imitation is mandated to occur only within critical periods >>and is genetically tightly circumscribed as to scope and range, >>yes. People may make up different word strings all their lives; >>human languages are open-ended systems, capable of unlimited >>possibilities for signification. Where's your proof that any species' >>birdsong modifies outside the genetically mandated critical period, >>or is capable in any case of any more than a tiny number of very >>similar "variations"? >> >> >>To embellish this point slightly... in my mind the question is, does the >>evolution of birdsong result in the formation of culture, which takes on a >>life of its own independent of, but on the platform of, its genetic >>heritage? That's when it would be memetics. > >Depends what you mean by "culture", of course. Some people think it only means >stuff like opera. But the only strict and systematic definition I know, >whereby information is passed between generations not only by genetics but >also via learned behavioural patterns, clearly includes the relevant types of >birdsong. The information that is learned, is the culture. > > It's been quite a while since I've read about bird song, but if I'm not mistaken there is a difference between species regarding whether certain types of song are hardwired or learned. It seems to me that some birds have dialects, which reflects the capacity for regional variation. Other species might be more rigidly codified. Parrots and parakeets and other such birds are pretty good at mimicking their owners. I don't know whether certain developmental windows figure into the equation here. It might come down to a species by species consideration and not a generalization applicable to all birds as a group.
Scott
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