Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id BAA18969 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 21 Feb 2000 01:01:39 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: marlowe.umd.edu: debivort owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:00:34 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence H. de Bivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> X-Sender: debivort@marlowe.umd.edu To: memetics <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: Re:meaning in memetics In-Reply-To: <001201bf7be4$4b28fac0$2f05bed4@default> Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0002201945060.20644-100000@marlowe.umd.edu> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>On Friday 18/02/2000 Lawrence H de Bivort wrote:
>
><The individual human being may not be as 'unpredictable' as it is often
>assumes.It may be no than a matter of the accuracy and level of detail
>of the models we use to 'model' individual.My sense is that we are as
>close to accurately predicting individual behavior as we are mass behavior.
>In the end,I think,we will find it easier to predict the individual with true
>accuracy than mass behavior,which seems doomed to statistical
>analysis of probalities.>
Kenneth Van Oost:
>I can't agree on this!
>
>I wonder,how are you gonna support this claim without denying the concept of
>memetics itself!?
>I may not be in control over my behavior according to the meme point of view,
>mine memes are! Where is the idea of selfish memes in your claim gone to?
The intriguing thing to me about memes is how, through their spread, we
can, precisely, predict the effect they will have on human behavior, and
on mass behavior to the extent the meme spreads massively.
I don't attach persona to 'memes' -- I do not assert that a meme is
'selfish' any more than I would say a shoe is selfish. As Stafford Beer
said, 'the purpose of a system is what it does.'
SNIP
Kenneth Van Oost:
>I understand that individual behavior could be measurable by collective
>agents and can be directed by propaganda etc.,but we have seen the
>consequences of that.This way of thinking is dangerous!
There are good consequences and bad consequences. I don't think the 'way
of thinking' is dangerous, but I do think it can have consequences that
could be dangerous; and it can have beneficial consequences. I agree that
it is significant thinking and that the ethical dimensions of memes
deserve major attention. I can just see the Wright brothers being told
that their flying machine way of thinking was dangerous! <grin>
Kenneth Van Oost:
>To my thinking,you can predict individual behavior,yes_if you count in
>really all possible interpretations,all possible angles of a problem,all
>what an individual carries within himself about
>society/ethics/politics/etc._if you are,in that respect in total control
>over that individual,his life and his memes.And that can be done only by
>force,counting in_of course_the certainty that you can guide all of our
>memes!
LdB: I think it will prove considerably less difficult and requiring of a
comprehensive modelling of an individual. Some things are more important
in an individual than other things. For example: some values will be more
important, more controlling, than other values. If we can model the
controlling things only, our modelling task may become much simpler,
without losing much predictability. But a agree that in principle as
simplification
takes place there is a loss of resolution in prediction. The loss may not
have practical significance.
>And still,to my thinking,that is quite impossible from the meme point of view!?
LdB: Memes are just part of the internal subjective reality of the
individual, part of the belief structure, as I use the concept.
>Or,must we count in for that reason that the individuality-meme directs us,
>tricks us,hooks us into than mass behavior!?
LdB: I don't understand the question. Can you say it differently? Thanks.
Regards,
Lawrence de Bivort
The Memetics Group
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