Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA25140 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:19:10 GMT From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Words and Memes Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:51:19 -0500 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAOECNCLAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <004401c1b650$cb1d0480$1986b2d1@teddace> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Ideas become memetic only when they self-replicate. When they replicate
> through human intention, they're just ideas. Yes, memes can involve
> behavior as well as ideas. But if we equate memes with behavior
> and ideas,
> then we might as well just refer to behavior and ideas and forget about
> "memes." There has to be something that distinguishes some behaviors and
> ideas from others. When they're not only habitual but *culturally*
> habitual, then they constitute memes.
>
> Ted
Yes, well said. This is how we view memes. Memes are ideas or beliefs that
specifically have structures and elements (primarily linguistic or symbolic)
that will enable to self-disseminate and self-defend. If an idea does not
have these structures it is not a meme.
Memes are not behaviors because behaviors _can_ have no idea behind them,
nor need have self-replicating structures. A behavior, if it given these
structures and an idea or belief embedded within it, can then but only then
serve as a medium for a meme. i would add, for this same reason other
instances of the human experience are not memes either, e.g. emotions, or
the expression of emotions....unless they are embedded in the memetic
structures.
To take this a little further: It is the structure that allows
self-diseemination and self-defense that makes a thing a meme, not the thing
itself.
We're going to have to get some Venn diagrams going here. ;-)
Lawrence
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