Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA00817 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 17 Feb 2002 21:38:29 GMT Message-ID: <003301c1b7f7$f141a1e0$9086b2d1@teddace> From: "Dace" <edace@earthlink.net> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAOECNCLAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Subject: Re: Words and Memes Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:13:25 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Lawrence,
> > Ideas become memetic only when they self-replicate. When they
> > replicate through human intention, they're just ideas. Yes, memes
> > can involve behavior as well as ideas. But if we equate memes with
> > behavior and ideas, then we might as well just refer to behavior and
> > ideas and forget about "memes." There has to be something that
> > distinguishes some behaviors and ideas from others. When they're
> > not only habitual but *culturally* habitual, then they constitute memes.
>
> Yes, well said. This is how we view memes. Memes are ideas or beliefs
> that specifically have structures and elements (primarily linguistic or
> symbolic) that will enable to self-disseminate and self-defend. If an
idea
> does not have these structures it is not a meme.
>
> Memes are not behaviors because behaviors _can_ have no idea
> behind them, nor need have self-replicating structures.
What about a language? Isn't our speech a self-perpetuating behavior? It
begins as a product of human creativity but gradually becomes ingrained.
You can learn a language intentionally, but that's not how children do it.
Our native language incorporates us into itself, not the other way around.
> A behavior, if it given these structures
> and an idea or belief embedded within it, can then but only then serve
> as a medium for a meme.
Why can't a behavior be both the meme and its mode of propagation?
> i would add, for this same reason other instances
> of the human experience are not memes either, e.g. emotions, or the
> expression of emotions....unless they are embedded in the memetic
> structures.
The way we express emotions is culturally defined and therefore memetic.
> To take this a little further: It is the structure that allows
self-diseemination
> and self-defense that makes a thing a meme, not the thing itself.
Well put.
Ted
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sun Feb 17 2002 - 21:48:06 GMT