Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id CAA15520 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:58:27 GMT Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:52:46 -0800 Message-Id: <200202050252.g152qkt15509@mail13.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [66.156.195.136] From: "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Selfish memes ? Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:16:27 +1100
> Re: Selfish memes ? John Wilkins <wilkins@wehi.edu.au> memetics@mmu.ac.ukReply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>
>On Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 11:52 AM, Joe Dees wrote:
>
>> Memes simply cannot be selfish because they are not self-reflective,
>> i.e. they cannot say to themselves "I'd better take this action in my
>> own self-interest". Memes do not possess intention. They simply
>> mutate, that is, they are intentionally or inadvertantly mutated by us,
>> their hosts, and the mutations that are better at both hooking into the
>> cognitive environments of others and penetrating others' existing
>> memetic filters disproportionately replicate.
>>
>
>The point of the "selfish gene/meme" metaphor is that we can model the
>behavior/dynamics of these things *as if* they were rationally
>self-interest agents. We can also model economic behavior that way, or
>international relations, but nobody thinks that economic agents really
>*are* rational, and as for international diplomacy... well.
>
>This is because game theory, which is the branch of mathematics used by
>Maynard Smith to mathematise selection processes in evolution, was
>developed to deal with, oddly, economic behaviors and international
>diplomacy, and it uses the rational egoist as the "ideal agent" from
>which to begin so that "irrational" behaviors can be identified. But it
>is not to say that people are either rational or egoistic, nor is it to
>say that genes or memes are somehow reflective agents. It's just that
>the maths works.
>
The 'intentional stance' model does indeed work in the arenas you mentioned; the classic masterwork is THEORY OF GAMES AND ECONOMIC BEHAVIOR by Von Neumann and Morgenstern.
Economics is no more than the synthesis of existentialism ( people are economically responsible for the consequences of their own market decisions), ethical egotism (people will always act in their own perceived economic self-interest) and the lack of omniscience of the agents (so that they always are making their decisions on the basis of incomplete information - and herein lies the risk).
>
>John S Wilkins
>Head, Communication Services
>The Walter and Eliza Hall Institute of Medical Research
>Parkville, Victoria, Australia
>
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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