Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA14497 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:20:45 GMT X-Originating-IP: [194.117.133.84] From: "Steve Drew" <srdrew_1@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Abstractism Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:15:03 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F110aii08N8yxdZjfNL0000220b@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Feb 2002 21:15:03.0905 (UTC) FILETIME=[03517D10:01C1ADC1] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 13:55:30 -0800
From: "Grant Callaghan" <grantc4@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Abstractism
>
>>Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 16:19:12 -0800
>From: "Grant Callaghan" <grantc4@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Abstractism
>
>The way I understand it, Mr. Rorschach just spilled some ink on a piece
>of
>paper and folder it over with no intention of transmitting a message.
>He
>was creating a convenient equivalent of clouds for his patients. I
>think
>intention has a great deal to do with transmitting messages. Anything
>transmitted without intent is not a message.
>
>Grant<
>
>It may not be a message, but it is information. If you go back to my
>’novice
>at a dinner party’ example from earlier, the other diners are not
>instructing the novice intentionally. The novice is learning by
copying,
>while the other guests are behaving (by their own criteria) normally.
>Therefore they are transmitting an unintentional message - "this is the
>behaviour you adopt at dinner parties" and which the novice endevours
to
>adopt. Irving Goffman wrote quite a bit about this sort of
*subliminal*
>messaging (and many other social psychologists). This is also part of
where
>i see the problem of who is doing the choosing - us or the meme.
>
>regards
>
>Steve
>
I also discussed receiving information in that message or the one before
and
someone compared it to seeing pictures in the clouds. We receive a
great
deal of information from others that is not meant as messages.
Everything
about a person provides us with information. Some of it is meant to be
a
signal and some is not.Most of it is deduced from the abundant clues
provided by speech patterns, decisions made about clothing, gestures,
head
and facial hair, etc., etc. Some of these things are meant as messages
and
some are not. But they provide us with information regardless.
Information
not meant to be a message can, nevertheless, be a meme. That's because
the
information can be transferred merely by its presence.
A person who wears a particular costume indicating status (a business
suit
for example) is sending a message. The person from another culture
sends
messages with his clothing and speech patterns to other members of his
culture but not to people of another culture. People of the other
culture
get information from this data even though it is not necessarily the
information being transmitted. If they use what they learned to change
their own behavior, I think you can call that a meme.
Grant<
I agree with a lot that you have said, but the information given by the
practiced diners does constitute a message. If the novice did not bother to
adopt their practices the others would very quikly recognise this and
respond accordingly. This is why i say that a lot of the messaging is not
intentional in that they have thought about what they want to say, but it is
intentional in that it is what we do all the time - conform to the norms of
the culture we live in and broadcast those norms in the things that we do.
It is only when some one acts contrary to those norms that we actually start
to think about what we our selves are doing. And people usually respond
negatively to major infractions of norms that have been committed. i agree
with you that messages, information etc, intentional or otherwise tend to be
culture specific, but i assumed that was as read. Inter-cultural
communication is a whole different ball game as many of us are aware and you
yourself have mentioned.
regards
Steve
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