Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id BAA12707 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:55:08 GMT Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020203204534.00a292a0@mail.clarityconnect.com> X-Sender: rrecchia@mail.clarityconnect.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 20:47:45 -0500 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk From: Ray Recchia <rrecchia@mail.clarityconnect.com> Subject: Re: Words and memes In-Reply-To: <004401c1ace3$0c6cdfe0$5cc1b3d1@teddace> References: <20020202025534.81703.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
At 10:46 AM 2/3/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>From: John Croft
>
> > Thus Ted wrote
> > > >In order for this to occur, the words must involve
> > > >some kind of interpretation ("bacon is evil") and
> > > >not a mere statement of fact ("bacon is in the
> > > >fridge"). If it's merely factual, the repetition
> > > >of the statement can be accounted for according to
> > > >normal, intentional use of language.
> >
> > and Keith replied
> > > Good way to put it. You can't call everything a
> > > meme or it becomes a useless word.
> >
> > Again I would disagree with you both here. Everything
> > that is culturally duplicated and diseminated is a
> > meme. (Not just statements with interpretation - for
> > instance - a sung melody is a meme, a gesture (eg
> > shaking hands in greeting) is a meme, washing potatoes
> > in the sea before eating them is a meme. It is the
> > fact of duplication that makes it mimetic. If not
> > duplicated, but learned individually with every
> > generation, or if "instinctual" and passed genetically
> > then it is not a meme. "Fridges", "bacon" and putting
> > "bacon" into "fridges" are all mimentic, specific to
> > one culture, and all "seek" replication.
>
>Culture can be divided into intentional and memetic. While the "atoms of
>culture" are always taking on a life of their own-- far beyond the
>intentions of their creators-- we are continually regenerating culture from
>the foundation. Even if a particular tune is known to be "catchy," if I
>consciously decide to hum it, it's a function of intentional culture. Only
>when it starts playing on its own-- and continues replaying long after it's
>begun to annoy me-- does it become a function of memetic culture.
>
>I agree that it's important to distinguish between what is memetic and what
>is genetic. But it's also important to distinguish between what is memetic
>and what is intentional. In order for the term to be meaningful, "meme"
>must be delineated on both sides, from biology and from reflexive
>consciousness.
>
>The key issue is whether the unit of culture is self-replicated or
>intentionally replicated by a conscious agent. Memes are active. Ideas are
>passive.
>
>Ted
I would be curious to see an example of a 'meme' and an example of an
'idea' that will display the distinction you are trying to make.
Ray Recchia
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Mon Feb 04 2002 - 02:03:57 GMT