Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id HAA01948 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 18 Jan 2002 07:46:02 GMT Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:41:36 -0800 Message-Id: <200201180741.g0I7faq30605@mail17.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [65.80.160.162] From: "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Modes of Transmission Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
> memetics@mmu.ac.ukDate: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 02:16:49 -0500
> "Philip Jonkers" <PHILIPJONKERS@prodigy.net> Re: Modes of TransmissionReply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>>It looks like you are listing media of communication,
>at least with regard to
>>the transmission of ideas.
>>
>>
>>Some very basic questions are:
>>
>>1. WHAT is the replicator or WHAT are the replicators
>>
>>2. HOW does the replicator (or replicators) replicate
>>
>>3. WHY do some replicators replicate more than others
>do.
>>
>>Questions 1 and 2 seem to be getting mixed together
>in recent threads, though
>>I have not read everything.
>>
>>In answering question 1, there seem to be three very
>broad classes under
>>consideration:
>>
>> A. Internal phenomena that might be called ideas
>and/or memories and/or
>>internal behaviors,
>
>I guess this class includes, what is referred to as
>`meaning', on the list.
>
>> B. External behaviors, typically visible,
>audible, tangible, etc. with
>>the unaided senses
>>
>> C. Artifacts.
>>
>>All of A, B, and C are identified by way of
>abstractions, as discussed in
>>this excerpt from my paper Units, Events, and
>Dynamics in the Evolutionary
>>Epidemiology of ideas
>(http://www.thoughtcontagion.com/UED.htm):
>
>It looks like you're in the memes-are-everywhere
>camp too. Cool... I expected no different though.
>
>>BEGIN QUOTE
>>" Many of the conceptual and analytical tools used to
>consider thought
>>contagions also pertain to the various other kinds of
>cultural replicators,
>>though often with modification. Still, the
>similarities allow for scientists
>>to study a range of different kinds of cultural
>replicators. As with memory
>>items, one still needs abstractions to consider two
>behaviors or two
>>artifacts "the same." That means that one still needs
>to use abstractions to
>>view behaviors or artifacts as replicators. For
>example, it takes an
>>abstraction to say that two people both
>performed "the same" behavior of
>>tying a shoe. One does not mean that hands followed
>the exact same
>>trajectories over time, since no two people's hands
>are exactly identical.
>>Some hands have fewer than five digits, others have
>extra digits, while still
>>others have arthritic joints. Even for a single
>individual, the trajectories
>>followed in tying a shoe can vary dramatically, while
>the physiological state
>>of the hands and body also change from moment to
>moment and year to year.
>>What one calls "the behavior" of tying a shoe is
>recognized more for the
>>outcome of a secure bow made by one person than the
>specific behavior leading
>>to that result. People also learn different ways of
>tying a shoe:
>>single-handedly or left-handedly, while others learn
>to tie bows that have
>>slight topological differences such as a clockwise or
>counterclockwise twist.
>>Compounding the diversity is the huge variety of
>shoes and shoe laces. A very
>>young child needs a certain amount of experiential
>learning just to know that
>>a shoe-tying behavior is happening. Cultural
>replication can only happen with
>>respect to an abstraction, whether it involves
>internal memory items or
>>external behaviors and artifacts or any combination
>of them.
>>
>>While a behavior such as tying a shoe is not itself a
>thought contagion, the
>>knowledge of how to tie a shoe with a bow does spread
>as a thought contagion.
>>The ease of untying a slip knot such as a bow would
>have given people
>>incentive to learn the knowledge of how to tie a bow
>from other people seen
>>doing it. As that knowledge spread in adults, parents
>had motives for
>>inculcating the knowledge into their children: doing
>so saved them from
>>having to dig terrible knots out of their children's
>shoelaces or from
>>dealing with shoes falling off of their children or
>from always having to
>>help the children with their shoes.
>>
>>When artifacts are viewed as replicators, most
>involve brains at some point
>>in the causal pathway to forming new "copies." Bows
>tied in shoelaces do not
>>replicate themselves, and they are usually not even
>used for clues about how
>>to tie shoelaces. Instead, bows result from behaviors
>that result from stored
>>knowledge, with the behaviors playing an essential
>role in communicating the
>>knowledge from brain to brain. The bow as an artifact
>helps call attention to
>>the fact that there is a useful bow-tying behavior
>and knowledge of how to
>>tie a bow. The artifacts of bows, the behavior of
>tying bows, and the
>>knowledge of how to tie a bow all depend upon each
>other for propagation.
>>They all depend on the persistence of memory for
>preservation, as the bows
>>and the behaviors of tying them usually remain
>dormant while people sleep
>>with their shoes off and untied. " END QUOTE
>
>Nice and clear quote, I like it...
>
>>In regard to ideas as replicators, the general
>question 2 of how the
>>replicators replicate includes both the media of
>communication and other
>>behavioral specifics. Under media of communication,
>you do indeed have such
>>things as showing, saying, writing, and picturing.
>With respect to idea
>>transmission, artifacts and behaviors can be media of
>communication. Along
>>with showing, saying, writing, and picturing, one
>might add signing (as in
>>sign language), and even some exotic, futuristic
>methods involving
>>micro-neurosurgery. If we could learn from osmosis, I
>would add that one too
>>:-)
>>
>>--Aaron Lynch
>
>What is the difference between showing and picturing?
>I can't picture that... Well, we can already
>learn from osmosis since a branch of biology
>probably is dedicated to just doing that. Do you mean
>to learn mediated by osmosis in a cheating and
>lazy kind of way in which you acquire
>knowledge without investing the good old blood, sweat
>& tears?
>Sorry Aaron for being
>such a hair splitter, I guess it comes with the
>territory (computational science).
>
>Cheers,
>
>Philip.
>
It's the difference between showing someone how to use a camera (to communicate the how-too-take-a-picture meme) and showing someone a picture of a camera if one hasn't one handy (to communicate the recognize-a-camera-of-this-type meme).
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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