Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA29095 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:13:34 GMT From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:36:46 -0500 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAMEJPCJAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D1E7@inchna.stir.ac.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
In fairness to Richard, I should have said that Bush adminsitration
officials are now conceding that they have not met their military objectives
in Afghanistan, and that it doesn't look like they will. Some of these
officials are proposing different objectives, and others are saying that,
regardless, we accomplished something (referring primarily to the removal of
the Taliban.)
With regard to Powell, Bush senior and Rumsfeld, I will say only that Powell
does know quite a bit (and has, even better, a good instinct for things) but
that he was effectively isolated by the Bush White House and of only
marginal influence. He has been dusted off now to go and calm Pakistan and
India down, after the US created the conditions (our indebtedness to
Musharref and Pakistan) for the most recent renewal of their feud. Bush
senior and Rumsfeld -- I will leave everyone to make their own judgements of
those two!
But now we enter into interesting times, memetically:
1) John Walker is charged and must be brought before a court, where his
defense will undoubtedly serve as a trial for Bush policies (watch the Bush
admin try and plea bargain with Walker so that there is no public trial and
discussion of the legal issues raised by the US's post Sept 11 actions).
2) Al Qaida and Taliban "detainees" are under US control but the
adminsitration doesn't know what to do with them, not being able to find a
convenient legal box to put them in. The lawyers will be buring the late
night oil trying to language this one. My guess is that we'll see
considerable ex post facto languaging and reframing of US policies and
actions. In particular, it raises the nasty issues of proof and due process.
Interesting, interesting. I'm back avidly to reading the papers and chatting
with administration friends.
Lawrence
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Vincent Campbell
> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 9:14 AM
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
>
>
> Hiya everyone,
>
> Hands up who thinks Richard's views here have any credence whatsoever?
> Notice the way he uses the term 'we' as though he was personally
> engaged in
> the destruction of Afghanistan. If only he was prepared to have an open
> debate about such issues, but it looks like only fellow Americans are
> afforded the luxury of not being filtered.
>
> Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: Richard Brodie
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 16:35 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> >
> > <<Slowly, the Bush administration is beginning to see the
> inconsistencies
> > and
> > drawbacks of their actions: yesterday, unidentified Whote House
> 'sources'
> > conceded that the US actions in Afghanistan haven't 'won the war on
> > terrorism.'>>
> >
> > Bush said this repeatedly from day one.
> >
> > << Next, I hope, will come the recognition that when something
> > fails, doing it harder is not the answer. And then perhaps
> there will be a
> > willingness to think about terrorism intelligently and to
> design policies
> > and actions that will defuse it. But I think it will be several months
> > before we get to this point.>>
> >
> > I'm astounded that anyone could consider the battle we just won in
> > Afghanistan a failure. We killed thousands of enemy soldiers, destroyed
> > all
> > their bases, and gathered tons of intelligence. What can you be
> thinking?
> >
> > <<Also, in the category of the Bush administration calming down
> and coming
> > to
> > its senses, it has now conceded that missile attacks from 'rogue states'
> > are
> > not the greatest military danger to the US, but that low-grade terrorist
> > attacks (e.g. trucks a la Oklahoma city) are. Some analysts have been
> > arguing this for months (and some years) and it is nice to see some
> > progress.>>
> >
> > Second time you've used the word "concede" as if everybody didn't know
> > this
> > from day one.
> >
> > <<The Bush adminsitration understood little of the
> > US role internationally, and next to nothing about the Middle East.>>
> >
> > With Powell, Rumsfeld, and Bush Sr. in the camp, I doubt there has ever
> > been
> > an Administration with better understanding.
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
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> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
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> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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