Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id QAA18303 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:05:45 GMT From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:29:28 -0500 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMACEFLCJAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D1DF@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
In fairness, the US was put into a most difficult situation on Sept 11,
regardless of how our actions before that may have helped create the
conditions that led to Sept. 11. We had never imagined that this might
happen to us, and our perception that we are liked around the world made it
even harder to fathom. Given the level of our impacts globally, Americans
generally do not know much about the world outside our borders. Much of
official Washington was thrown into what I view as cognitive panic. We just
didn't know _how_ to think about Sept 11. We have discussed on this list
what the options might have been and their pros and cons, and much as I
disagree with what Bush/Rumsfeld/Ashcroft have done, I also can understand
how they embarked on that course of action. It was a time when mistakes were
easy to make, and with clamour to 'do something (anything) fast' their job
was only made harder.
Slowly, the Bush administration is beginning to see the inconsistencies and
drawbacks of their actions: yesterday, unidentified Whote House 'sources'
conceded that the US actions in Afghanistan haven't 'won the war on
terrorism.' Next, I hope, will come the recognition that when something
fails, doing it harder is not the answer. And then perhaps there will be a
willingness to think about terrorism intelligently and to design policies
and actions that will defuse it. But I think it will be several months
before we get to this point.
Also, in the category of the Bush administration calming down and coming to
its senses, it has now conceded that missile attacks from 'rogue states' are
not the greatest military danger to the US, but that low-grade terrorist
attacks (e.g. trucks a la Oklahoma city) are. Some analysts have been
arguing this for months (and some years) and it is nice to see some
progress.
I guess this email is in the way of a plea to those who are critical of US
actions (as I am) to understand the immense cognitive blast of Sept 11.
Decision-makers here were dazed, and in this conditon mistakes -- even huge
ones -- are easy to make. The Bush adminsitration understood little of the
US role internationally, and next to nothing about the Middle East. They
embarked on a steep learning curve, but felt compelled to take major action
before they had had a chance to progress far along it. Now it seems
understanding may be beginning to catch up with action. It is a shame that
some of these actions may have now foreclosed a range of options that with
the growing learning may come to be viewed as advantageous.
Sept 11 has a lot to teach us about memetics, and I hope that we continue to
remember this when we discuss Sept 11 on this list. There is plenty of room
for disagreement on the substance of the Bush actions.
Lawrence
> I see your point Lawrence, as I'm sure many others on the list do.
>
> Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: Richard Brodie
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 21:21 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> >
> > I think that's way off base. Bush and other have bent over backwards to
> > say
> > we are fighting terrorists, not Islam. In any case your
> examples are a far
> > cry from the intensive anti-Western brainwashing given to some Muslim
> > children in their schools.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Lawrence DeBivort
> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:28 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> >
> >
> > Take the instances I listed below. Each of them implies that Christians
> > (Americans) have the right to act the way they have in these instances,
> > and
> > have that right because Muslims are to be hated. The attacks by
> the US on
> > Arab and Muslims countries, listed below, were carried out outside
> > international and US law. At least two instances (Tripoli and
> Sudan) were
> > found subsequently to be without justification. Muslims are
> inferior, goes
> > the implicit and at times explicit argument, and so it is acceptable to
> > hate
> > them.
> >
> > To put the point more specifically, a US Congressman (from Louisiana, I
> > believe?) called Arabs/Muslims a people who wear diapers and
> fan belts on
> > their heads. Islam is routinely accused of oppressing women (though most
> > who
> > do so are confusing the Taliban with Islam). And all too many US
> > commentators gleefully describe the inferiorities of Islam
> while ignoring
> > its accomplishments. I attended a local church service, and the pastor
> > picked up on this refrain, and said that any society that
> harbored within
> > it
> > those who could carry out Sept. 11 was itself evil (an echo of Bush's
> > 'those
> > who harbor terrorist' argument). Even Thomas Friedman, who used
> to have a
> > semi-balanced view of the Middle East, has fallen in with the
> anti-Muslim
> > views of post-Sept. 11.
> >
> > All this, unchallenged by any significant body of American political,
> > legal
> > or moral leaders, conveys to the American people (children or
> adults) that
> > Muslims are not worthy of fair or legal treatment. Sept 11 proved a
> > bonanza
> > for those who hate, whether they are Muslims who hate America, or
> > Americans
> > who hate Muslims. All too many educated Americans fell for it,
> as have, I
> > would guess, all too many educated Muslims.
> >
> > Lawrence
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
> [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > > Of Richard Brodie
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:38 PM
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> > >
> > >
> > > No, that wasn't what I was asking. I was asking where Christian
> > > children are
> > > being taught to hate Muslims.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
> [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > > Of Lawrence DeBivort
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 8:54 AM
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please remember we are asking how Muslim children might get the
> > > 'meme' that
> > > Christians are out to kill them, in parallel with Chriustian kids
> > getting
> > > the 'meme' that Muslims are out to kill them...
> > >
> > > What Christians have done to Muslims recently that might
> spread the meme
> > > that Christians are out to kill Muslims:
> > >
> > > - Somalia
> > > - Attack on civilian sections of Tripoli
> > > - US bombings of Iraq post-Kuwait
> > > - Sudan -- Clinton's cruise missiles
> > > - Afghanistan - ditto
> > >
> > > Each of these US actions -- entirely justified in US gov't eyes --
> > killed
> > > and harmed Muslim civilians.
> > >
> > > And then we have the highly publicised:
> > >
> > > - Bush's 'the evil ones' used without specification
> > >
> > > - Bush's 'crusade' - later retracted by Bush if not by those
> who planted
> > > this ill-conceived language in his mind), but only after the
> > > 'crusade' meme
> > > had spread
> > >
> > > - Afghanistan 'collateral damage' -- this meme, launched by
> the DoD and
> > > Bush, has been well-exploited to suggest a callous disrgard to
> > > the death and
> > > maiming of innocents.
> > >
> > > I won't even go into the two-centuries of colonialism by the
> > > Christian West
> > > (often and more recently with US participation) that preceded all of
> > this.
> > > But will, if you inquire ;-D
> > >
> > > Some will want to argue with us about how some or all of these actions
> > are
> > > 'justified' but this is not of great interest here: we are
> > > talking about the
> > > acts, perceptions and language what create and spread memes.
> > >
> > > Lawrence
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I don't see the parallel. Where is that happening?
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
> > Behalf
> > > > Of Lawrence DeBivort
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 7:11 AM
> > > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In the same way, I suppose, that Muslim parents have to worry about
> > > > Christian kids being taught that it is alright to kill Muslims.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > <<It's not the memes you have to worry about, it's the people who
> > use
> > > > > them.>>
> > > > >
> > > > > So we don't have to worry about Muslim children being taught that
> > the
> > > > > highest goal in life is to kill themselves in an attack on
> > Americans?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ===============================================================
> > > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> > Transmission
> > > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g.
> unsubscribing)
> > > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> Transmission
> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> Transmission
> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
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> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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