Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA18186 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:50:51 GMT Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D1DF@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:08:15 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Filter-Info: UoS MailScan 0.1 [D 1] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Typically obtuse comments from Richard again (I can't address him directly,
as he filters me for disagreeing with him on this point a couple of months
back). I see your point Lawrence, as I'm sure many others on the list do.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Richard Brodie
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 21:21 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
>
> I think that's way off base. Bush and other have bent over backwards to
> say
> we are fighting terrorists, not Islam. In any case your examples are a far
> cry from the intensive anti-Western brainwashing given to some Muslim
> children in their schools.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Lawrence DeBivort
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:28 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
>
>
> Take the instances I listed below. Each of them implies that Christians
> (Americans) have the right to act the way they have in these instances,
> and
> have that right because Muslims are to be hated. The attacks by the US on
> Arab and Muslims countries, listed below, were carried out outside
> international and US law. At least two instances (Tripoli and Sudan) were
> found subsequently to be without justification. Muslims are inferior, goes
> the implicit and at times explicit argument, and so it is acceptable to
> hate
> them.
>
> To put the point more specifically, a US Congressman (from Louisiana, I
> believe?) called Arabs/Muslims a people who wear diapers and fan belts on
> their heads. Islam is routinely accused of oppressing women (though most
> who
> do so are confusing the Taliban with Islam). And all too many US
> commentators gleefully describe the inferiorities of Islam while ignoring
> its accomplishments. I attended a local church service, and the pastor
> picked up on this refrain, and said that any society that harbored within
> it
> those who could carry out Sept. 11 was itself evil (an echo of Bush's
> 'those
> who harbor terrorist' argument). Even Thomas Friedman, who used to have a
> semi-balanced view of the Middle East, has fallen in with the anti-Muslim
> views of post-Sept. 11.
>
> All this, unchallenged by any significant body of American political,
> legal
> or moral leaders, conveys to the American people (children or adults) that
> Muslims are not worthy of fair or legal treatment. Sept 11 proved a
> bonanza
> for those who hate, whether they are Muslims who hate America, or
> Americans
> who hate Muslims. All too many educated Americans fell for it, as have, I
> would guess, all too many educated Muslims.
>
> Lawrence
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Richard Brodie
> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:38 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> >
> >
> > No, that wasn't what I was asking. I was asking where Christian
> > children are
> > being taught to hate Muslims.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Lawrence DeBivort
> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 8:54 AM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> >
> >
> >
> > Please remember we are asking how Muslim children might get the
> > 'meme' that
> > Christians are out to kill them, in parallel with Chriustian kids
> getting
> > the 'meme' that Muslims are out to kill them...
> >
> > What Christians have done to Muslims recently that might spread the meme
> > that Christians are out to kill Muslims:
> >
> > - Somalia
> > - Attack on civilian sections of Tripoli
> > - US bombings of Iraq post-Kuwait
> > - Sudan -- Clinton's cruise missiles
> > - Afghanistan - ditto
> >
> > Each of these US actions -- entirely justified in US gov't eyes --
> killed
> > and harmed Muslim civilians.
> >
> > And then we have the highly publicised:
> >
> > - Bush's 'the evil ones' used without specification
> >
> > - Bush's 'crusade' - later retracted by Bush if not by those who planted
> > this ill-conceived language in his mind), but only after the
> > 'crusade' meme
> > had spread
> >
> > - Afghanistan 'collateral damage' -- this meme, launched by the DoD and
> > Bush, has been well-exploited to suggest a callous disrgard to
> > the death and
> > maiming of innocents.
> >
> > I won't even go into the two-centuries of colonialism by the
> > Christian West
> > (often and more recently with US participation) that preceded all of
> this.
> > But will, if you inquire ;-D
> >
> > Some will want to argue with us about how some or all of these actions
> are
> > 'justified' but this is not of great interest here: we are
> > talking about the
> > acts, perceptions and language what create and spread memes.
> >
> > Lawrence
> >
> >
> >
> > > I don't see the parallel. Where is that happening?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
> Behalf
> > > Of Lawrence DeBivort
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 7:11 AM
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> > >
> > >
> > > In the same way, I suppose, that Muslim parents have to worry about
> > > Christian kids being taught that it is alright to kill Muslims.
> > >
> > >
> > > > <<It's not the memes you have to worry about, it's the people who
> use
> > > > them.>>
> > > >
> > > > So we don't have to worry about Muslim children being taught that
> the
> > > > highest goal in life is to kill themselves in an attack on
> Americans?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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>
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>
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