Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA07399 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:22:30 GMT Message-ID: <3C3D94AC.2000209@bioinf.man.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:18:36 +0000 From: Chris Taylor <Christopher.Taylor@man.ac.uk> Organization: University of Manchester User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-gb To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Lamarckian? References: <AA-0E749BBF44B1874CFFF8651350E0A843-ZZ@maillink1.prodigy.net> <3.0.1.32.20020110154859.00702468@pophost.nor.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Jeremy Bradley wrote:
> You wrote
> ....this appeals because we could construct a Darwinian 'learning'
>
>>machine (effectively a sort of neural genetic algorithm) much more
>>simply than a Lamarckian version (which must have a facility to learn
>>for a start).
>>
>
> Hi all
> This sort of sentiment worries me as I see that intelligence, even within
> one culture, is subjective. Just think how many times we hear the term
> "common sense" used to describe basic understandings within specific
> spheres of knowledge. Will your 'learning machine' attempt to create a
> homogenous 'right' (no pun intended) form of learning?
> I also have problems with notions of 'fitness'. Is fitness might, right,
> lucky, devious, savage, egotistic, careless of the ramifications of its
> actions - who is to say?
> Chomsky says that the Western nations have been successful because they
> were able to completely inculcate violence - will that make us 'fit' to
> survive. Is a culture that threatens to ruin the habitat which is
mutually
> owned by the rest of its species 'intelligent' (fit) enough to survive.
> Will you impose your version of intelligence on those who already
deny that
> you have any, or are we to revert to the convert or perish methods of
> colonisation?
> What meme drives this thought - 'might-is-right'?
> Jeremy
Not quite the angle I expected comment from, but some interesting points...
By learning I mean stuff on the level of matching a behaviour to a
scenario to achieve an outcome; I'm not sure that broaches any cultural
issues. Also I never tried to define intelligence in my post (other than
as a side ref to AI; but if pushed I'd say it was learning things
(mostly associative), then using the knowledge in the future at a level
above simple action-reaction pairs - i.e. pulling out generics from
specifics. My definitions have to apply to animals as well as humans.
As for the stuff you're getting at - notions of better/worse and
higher/lower, I eschew them completely. The principle is really survival
of the fit *enough*, with fitness defined as persistence in the world
through successive generations. Also, true altruism is never fit because
cheating (non-participation/reciprocation) is always fitter. There is no
such thing as altruism - charity (to wax cultural) is about the feelgood
buzz for the giver, and depends heavily on stranger exclusion. No
examples of altruism exist in biology.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Taylor (chris@bioinf.man.ac.uk)
http://bioinf.man.ac.uk/ »people»chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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