Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id WAA03100 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 5 Oct 2001 22:21:53 +0100 From: "salice" <salice@gmx.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 23:15:59 +0000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: A Test In-reply-to: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D073@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Message-Id: <E15pcMR-00036n-00@dryctnath.mmu.ac.uk> Sender: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> And what pray is that? And how do your define most accepted. I
> don't think Blackmore, Brodie, Dawkins or many others would concur.
My sentences were reproducible, that's why they are memes.
And that's what meme-theory is based on. That's all.
> <"Commit suicide now." might be an instruction/suggestion but it is
> > people do something. It is the persons brain which decides which
> > memes to believe in, which to follow, which to let survive.>
> No it doesn't because it's not a meme.
Okay, so you think that "Commit suicide now." is not a meme?
Ever heard about mass-suicide in sects? What if not this meme shared
the members of the sect the moment they commit suicide?
You think they all came randomly to the decision to commit suicide
at the same time at the same place, ALL people at this place ?
> > replicate and transmit. Your words. My point.>
> No people decide, or inadvertently transmit things to other people
> all the time- just like our conversation.
Yes.
> They only become memes if a
> person who has been transmitted to, decides, or inadvertently passes it on
> to someone else. (e.g. "I heard this really bad joke the other day....").
After this view a meme would require three persons. I write something
to you, you have to read it and tell it someone else so that it
becomes a meme?
I think you can see that this is not true.
> No they store specifi pieces of information idiosyncratically
> (obviously there are general areas of the brain for certain kinds of brain
> function), hence the idea of replication brain patterns (which memes in
> minds must be if that idea were true) must be false.
I also agree that brain patterns don't get replicated. (Atleast in
most cases!)
From that it doesn't follow though that memes can't be copied from
head to head. They are just stored differently.
> It's not crap, it's absolutely vital for the replicator theory to
> work, and the fidelity of language is remarkably high, the same could not be
> said for how information is stored in the brain.
How do you want to know how information is stored in the brain?
> That's the point- the meme is the sentence itself, once someone
> reproduces it.
The sentence is already a meme before someone reproduces it, because
it CAN be reproduced.
> > does not matter. The decision happened in his brain. His brain
> > decided whether this artifact gets replicated.>
> This is a specious point. The question that springs to mind is
> "...and?'
This example shows one way how memes get selected.
> People are capable of motivated and unmotivated behaviours, both
> of which can involve cultural transmission that is witting or unwitting.
It's doesn't matter whether it's witting or unwitting,
- the brain does it -, unconscious or conscious.
> You're missing the emergent properties that we're actually considering when
> talking about cultural transmission.
You're talking big words about 'cultural transmission' but you can't
describe how it exactly happens, outside the brain as you think.
> If you want to reduce everything to
> brain function you're better off following neuroscience- nothing wrong with
> that, incidentally, but not what memetics is primarily concerned with.
Selection of memes is an important concept of meme-theory, so looking
at the brain when it does select memes sure applies to memetics.
Neuroscience can sure help, but i guess most neuroscientist haven't
heard about memes yet. Or are there any works on "Memes and
Neuroscience"? According to your and dereks point something like this
could not even exist.
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