Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id XAA01046 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:19:31 +0100 X-Originating-IP: [209.240.220.143] From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Dawkins was right all along Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:12:24 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F2880LUDA1XiHY5FbEF00003182@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Sep 2001 22:12:24.0636 (UTC) FILETIME=[A8631FC0:01C143B3] Sender: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>From: Philip Jonkers <P.A.E.Jonkers@phys.rug.nl>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: RE: Dawkins was right all along
>Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:04:47 +0200 (CEST)
>
>Philip:
> > >Different interpretations are possible to be entertained
> > >exclusively by outsiders of the religion under scrutiny.
> > >We atheists have a privileged position in that we are
> > >universal outsiders of all religions.
>
>Scott:
> > So are you implying that being an atheist makes you superior
> > to someone who is religious? Are you free from the possible
> > biases inherent in a mindset and its polarizing
> > anti-religious extremes?
>
>Hi Scott,
>
>Think of it analogous to cases of anthropology or sociology;
>does a sociologist or anthropologist have to harbor feelings
>of superiority towards the social groups he wishes to study?
>Knowledge of underlying mechanisms at the basis of some
>cultural phenomenon doesn't necessarily have to impinge fascist
>sentiments on scholars investigating it, no?
>I'd say a true social scientist must assume impartiality at all
>times, no matter how apalling the subject is, in order to
>avoid getting emotionally involved and thus blurring his
>neutral vision. If not, his research shall be
>poisoned with prejudice and bias to an extent that increases
>with his partiality.
>
>The other end of the spectrum: anti-religious extremists is
>no better of course. Time and again I've supported the niche
>that religions bring more grief than joy in the world.
>Militant atheists also bring violence and hence more grief
>than joy on earth. I advocate striking the golden mean;
>get rid of religion and anti-religion, let's be humane and
>honest and assume atheism, the non-militant one of course.
>
>Philip:
> > >This permits us to
> > >study religions with an unbiased attitude; >
>
>Scott:
> > Could you understand what you study without a little
> > participant observation or walking a mile in someone's shoes?
>
>True, imagination is very important if not crucial. But there
>is a difference between imagining something and actually believing
>it. A good scholar should always be able to land back on his
>feet after a little airborne excursion into the realm of
>metaphysics or makebelief. Similarly, a good psychologist
>doesn't have to get mad first or having a former history of
>madness in order to sucessfully understand and analyze
>mad people, right?
>
>Philip:
> > >we are
> > >not hampered regarding our opinion by distorting sentiments
> > >of one's own religion.
>
>Scott:
> > What about the distortion stemming from militant atheist
> > extremism and treating religion as a mind virus which
> > requires preventative innoculations
> > and quarantine measures. I see a bunch of focus on the
> > horrid extremes of religions. I agree that these extremes
> > are wrong, but I think a crucial distinction needs to be
> > made that not all followers of a religion (or mindset to be
> > more broad) are extremists. Criticism of religion is important,
> > but distinctions need to be made. That's my main point all along.
>
>Like I said, I disapprove of any kind of militant stance based
>on religion or anti-religion. I agree with you that most religious
>people are synonymous to law-abiding citizins, I only have to
>look at my mother or the vast majority of my relatives.
>All I'm saying is that humanity is better off without
>religion all the same, but I reserve the right for people
>to decide that to the people ultimately.
>
>BTW, I share the opinion that religion is like a virus
>of the mind; I was infected myself virtually from birth
>but had the fortunate de-brainwashing capacity to rid myself
>of it in the recent years.
>
>Scott:
> > We all have our blinders or tinted lenses, whether religious
> > or not and are susceptible to "infection" by extremist
> > variants of our biases.
> >
> > Being a follower of memetics may even predispose you to placing
> > human behavior into the wrong tidied cubbyholes, just as
> > being an atheist may lead to going overboard on an
> > anti-religious tirade. I thought objectivity entailed not
> > taking a normative stance on what you study or at least
> > approaching what you study in a more balanced manner.
> > I've seen some anti-religious sentiment focusing on the
> > negatives.
>
>You ought to know how I feel about (anti)-religion by now.
>I'm not the kind a guy to fall for any kind of extremist
>or militant movement. I'm a scientist for crying out loud...
>
>
Sorry, Dawkins's piece kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I perceived him as
using the recent tragedies to take a hard swipe at religion in general.
Maybe there's a kernel of truth to what he was saying, but he could have
been a little fairer.
I have known many religious and semi-religious types and they seem to get
along OK for the most part in life. I suspect that churches have quite a few
agnostic or doubting parishioners sitting in their pews who use church or
associated functions as a means for social mixing or other benefits. Not
everybody at church might be a bible-thumper.
I was in elementary school when I started having my doubts. I remember
telling my mom something to the effect that I didn't believe in God, though
I still wavered a lot afterward.
I've taken my own swipes at religion in the past, so I guess I could border
on hyprocrisy. I'm trying to develop an approach that though critical isn't
one-sided (ie- negative).
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