Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA06293 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:07:57 +0100 From: Philip Jonkers <P.A.E.Jonkers@phys.rug.nl> X-Authentication-Warning: rugth1.phys.rug.nl: www-data set sender to jonkers@localhost using -f To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Dawkins View Message-ID: <1000908215.3ba8a5b716a52@rugth1.phys.rug.nl> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:03:35 +0200 (CEST) References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6CFF5@inchna.stir.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6CFF5@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 129.125.13.3 Sender: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Richard:
> <not Dawkins's best work. His fervent anti-religionism is coloring
> his point
> > of view. Certainly belief in a paradisiacal afterlife is not necessary
> for
> > suicide commandos. Animals have a built-in mechanism to sacrifice
> > themselves
> > for the good of their kin. All that is necessary is to co-opt that.
> Even
> > the
> > heroic passengers on UA93, who overpowered the hijackers and
> apparently
> > crashed the plane, were driven by that mechanism.>
Vincent:
> I agree Dawkins' comments were clearly fuelled by outrage, and you
> make a valid point here.
Yeah but....
Hi Vincent & Richard,
Call me stupid but whose relatives were saved
when the passengers of UA93 heroically comitted suicide.
For the life of me I can't imagine that the relatedness
between passengers who bravely seized control
and members of the White House is substantially non-vanishing.
Surely some different mechanism must have propelled the
passengers to attempt to take over control from the hijackers.
Since Americans are so fond of their country (no offense),
I'd advance Patriotism, as opposed to saving kin,
as plausible memetic driving force.
Vincent:
> <I assure you the Government is well aware of how America's actions
> are
> > perceived by various factions in the Middle East. But remember,
> these
> > barbarians have attacked many other countries. There are some forces
> that
> > it
> > just doesn't make sense to appease. They must be destroyed.>
> >
> Who are you going to destroy and how? As a key proponent of the
> mind virus approach in memetics you should know that destruction of
> the
> source of a powerful mind virus like a religious ideology can do little
> more
> than increase its strength. Does Islam need another martyr in Bin Laden
> to
> inspire generations in the future? Calling them barbarians is simply
> trading insults- remember to them the West contains the barbarians.
> Who's
> memes are stronger theirs or ours? I think you're very wrong about US
> government awareness of its perception in the global community,
> otherwise it
> might have altered its position on Israel, not left Pakistan high and
> dry
> after the cold war finished and so on. I don't think there are many
> in
> Europe, amongst the public anyway if not the governments, who regard
> US
> foreign policy in the Mid East or anywhere else for that matter as
> that
> incisive.
Well put Vincent...
Careful surgical removal of the terrorist pest deserves
preference. Also the pest ought to be brought to
international trial as well, so the fate of the
terrorists is determined by the international community
and not by one nation. Declaring war by the US on Afghanistan
or Taliban does not seem to be a wise choice
as this usually results in lots of casualties and fosters more
mutual hatred between US and Islam agonists. Also the morale
of the terrorists will increase correspondingly once their homes
and families are under attack.
Philip.
> Vincent
> --
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> ===============================================================
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===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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