Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id KAA02504 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:27:12 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6CFE9@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: US Tragedy Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:31:39 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Filter-Info: UoS MailScan 0.1 [D 2] Sender: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Hi Scott,
<The actions of the IRA militants are deplorable, but some of them
Ulster
> protestant chaps ain't so great either (what's his name...Paisley?). Are
> the
> hardcore Unionists/Loyalists/Orangemen/UVF much better than the
> Nationalist
> republicans? I recall some recent news about attacks on Catholic
> schoolchildren which makes me ill, something not quite as noticeable over
> here in the states. All we usually hear about are the IRA, not realizing
> their antipodes.>
>
You're absolutely right, here. The recent events in Belfast, for
those who don't know, involved a Catholic girls school (kids from about 4 to
11). The local Catholic community's most direct route to the school is
through a couple of streets in a protestant area (there's a protestant
school on the other side of the road). The first day of school was met by
hundreds of protestant shouting, chanting and throwing missles at the
children being walked to school by their parents. Girls as young as 5 and 6
were clearly terrified, and the protestant residents were unapologetic. On
the second day they threw a blast bomb at the police protecting the kids.
Even with the perhaps greater initial understanding of why such an
event might happen over here in Europe, there is still a great deal of shock
and disbelief. At the end of the day, I don't think people really thought
anyone would be stupid enough to attack the US on this scale, or be able to
get away with it, so I don't think Americans' shock and disbelief is theirs
alone.
I wouldn't want to get into a relative loss of life debate in WWII.
We all know the Russians would win that hands down. There is a difference
though between the loss of life amongst armed forces and civilians, say
between Arnhem and the Blitz, the Dresden bombings, or the bombings in
Japan.
Vincent
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Scott Chase
> > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 12:38 am
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: Re: US Tragedy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be>
> > > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > >To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> > > >Subject: Re: US Tragedy
> > > >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:39:17 +0200
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: Lawrence DeBivort <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
> > > > > Drove past the Pentagon this morning early still smoking badly.
> How
> > > much
> > > > > more real to see it in person than on the little screen. And by
> > > >coincidence
> > > > > this afternoon I'll be driving past Manhatten and will see the new
> > > >skyline
> > > > > there, two teeth missing like a prize fighter that has taken a
> > > beating.
> > > > > News media and politicicos still not asking 'why' this happened,
> so
> > > the
> > > > > lessons are unlikely to be learned and the situation ripe for
> >further
> > > > > incidents of terrorism. Alas. I am going to try and prod 'why'
> > > questions
> > > >and
> > > > > discussion.
> > > >
> > > >Hi Lawrence,
> > > >
> > > >I don 't want to rip up more wounds, but I think the next will be of
> > > >interest of how people, like me reflects on what happened.
> > > >I did follow up CNN the last couple of days, and it seems to me that
> > > >it turns this tragedy into a show.
> > > >Breaking News, at about six o 'clock this evening, local time, was
> the
> > > >announcement that the NY police department did not need more
> > > >volunteers. Therefor they interrupted an interview with an ex-
> general
> > > >on how to invade Afghanistan.
> > > >
> > > >I wonder, this seems strange to me. I understand that each tiny bit
> > > >of information is of some importance to someone somewhere but
> > > >this seems odd.
> > > >This reminds me of one other interview which I saw this week with
> > > >an American woman living in Brussels, who calls this kind of beha-
> > > >vior " childish, playful and naive. "
> > > >She sees this troughout the American society.
> > > >This grasped my attention.
> > > >
> > > >Could the fact that Americans show such a behavior not be linked
> > > >to the fact that "Americans do not have a history " !?
> > > >Let me explain, in a sense, here in Europe we all lived such events,
> > > >WO I and WO II by which Germany get the blame and the trauma,
> > > >Belgium had the Dutroux- affair, England the death of Lady Diana.
> > > >These are only the recent examples, but our history is full of such
> > > >events.
> > > >
> > > >America had only three, recently, Pearl Harbor, JFK and WTC.
> > > >In a way, in historic time, America is still in its infancy and the
> > > people
> > > >acts accordingly.
> > > >If America can' t get it, noone will and if somebody has what America
> > > >wants they will take it....
> > > >This is IMO, yes indeed childish behavior and than there are two
> > > >possibilities, it makes you popular or it does not, most of the time,
>
> >not
> > > !
> > > >And children behaving like that on the schoolyard don 't have many
> > > >friends. They think they do, (NATO !?), but bullies always get what
> > > >they deserve.
> > > >
> > > >That is of course no way to see things, I understand, but in the
> >context
> > > >of this list of some importance.
> > > >In my mind there is no doubt that people get memetical determiniated
> > > >by the way they live, I posted this view this week, so couldn 't it
> not
> > > >be that American folks in contrast with Europeans are still, on some
> > > >memetical scale, in their infancy !?
> > > >
> > > >It seems to me, watching CNN all the time, that Americans can 't
> > > >grasp the fact that they did something, somewhere to somebody wrong.
> > > >And this seems to fit in the general picture of the child- analogy.
> > > >A bully turns always things upside down. He is not the blame, it is
> > > >always the others who don 't understand the way by which he behaves.
> > > >
> > > >What do you think !?
> > > >Hope I did not offend you, or others, in any way;
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I think I'll bite my lip on this one and not bite the hook.
> > >
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