Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA15717 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:10:13 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6CFB1@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Geographic Determinism Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:23:08 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Filter-Info: UoS MailScan 0.1 [D 1] Sender: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
See Jared Diamond's 'Guns, Germs and Steel' for an analysis of human history
that mixes geography and ecology to human development along these kinds of
lines.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Kenneth Van Oost
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2001 9:37 pm
> To: memetics
> Subject: Geographic Determinism
>
> Hi all,
>
> Vincent wrote on August 30,
> " As I was typing about cichlids in isolated pools, I started thinking
> about tribes isolated by mountain ranges, or large rivers, or whatever,
> and the resultant changes in language, belief systems etc.
> The following I wrote a time ago, but I never got round to post it.
> Now it seems the time is ripe,
>
> We all find it self- evident that the sea, the cities and the
> country- side are infecting our individual behavior.
> But does these areas also have an influence upon the political life and
> upon the decisions which have to be taken !?
>
> As an example we take mountainous terrain and we ask ourselves the
> question_ does a geographic determinism exists !?
> If we put the major mountain ranges out upon a map and we put the
> the wars which are in progress at the moment on that map we distinguich
> a remarkable resemblance.
> Wars, like in Afghanistan, Chiapas, Kurdistan and Kashmir are all located
> in mountainous terrain.
>
> So, could mountains forfill another function than plains, cities and
> forests !?
> Could they attract in a sense war !?
> In order to determine this we have to examine which functions the moun-
> tains have.
> If we draw upon our map also the major rivers of the world we see that
> almost all rise in the mountains and that they throw themselves afterwards
> into sea.
> Thus, the first function of mountain ranges is to sort out the watersupply
> for the industry, irrigation and consumption and therefor they acts as
> social and cultural but above all they act as possible political conflicts
> issues.
>
> If we draw now the real physical bounderies of the countries and nations
> upon our map, we see that those rivers traverse many others and do
> supply those with all kinds of fertilization and do make in that way a
> connection between the mountains and the plains.
> If we take a concrete example.
>
> Asia, the plateau of Tibet gives rise to several rivers.
> One is the Yangri Jaing which cuts through China and throws itself even-
> tually in the Chinese Sea. But the same plateau gives also rise to the
> Mekong river, which cuts through countries like Laos, Thailiand, Birma
> and Cambodia and finally Vietman where she flows into sea.
> China, by the way where the Mekong river is best know by the name of
> the Yunnan, has thus an enormous potential to control the other coun-
> tries which are mentioned earlier.
> But, if that is the case, China is than also responsible for the huge
> amount of air-, sole- and riverpolution and amounts to the economical
> consequences.
>
> Africa, Egypt is for nearly 90 % dependent on the Nile for its water-
> supply for its industry, agriculture and in a way for its nurture.
> Egypt is dependable of other countries like Burundi and Ethiopia for
> the flow of the Blue Nile, but also of Ugunda and Soudan where the
> Nile cuts through.
> Thus Egypt is very dependable on how it relates water to diplomacy.
> In fact both are linked.
> Because water has another function, namely energy.
> Energy is important because most of the hydro- electric power
> stations are built high up the mountains for their excellent position.
>
> So mountains do have as functions;- providing energy and providing
> enough water to substain industry and agriculture.
> But they also provide a lot of minerals, that due geological reasons.
> It is of course very clear that many industries will profit of this and
> for that reason they will setlle themselves into the mountains.
> Like in Chili, for copper, New- Guinea for gold and on the peninsula
> of Kola for nickel.
> Such enterprises do have an enormous direct influence upon the en-
> vironment:- disafforestation and polution.
> Also, most of the profits don 't seem to help the local residents of
> those areas.
>
> This of course is the direct motive for political tensions and this gives
> sometimes rise to armed conflicts, generally bloody suppressed by
> the army which does defend the interests of the great industries.
> In other words, mountains do obtain also another function, that
> of excellent hiding- place for starting guerilla warfare.
> Mountains provide thus excellent places to hide from colonists and
> from the central control of the state.
> Such a function fulfil the mountains for the Kurds, for the Afghans
> in the Hindu Kuch and of course the plateau of Tibet where rebels
> could resist for a long the Chinese occupation.
> Mountains, forests and plains are those elements which do make
> how long a war would or could last.
>
> Mountains can thus, in a way protect the cultural and ethnical heritage
> of a whole people; can in fact protect a certain way of life, but are also
> reasons for a kind of economical discrimination.
> If we look at statistics we do notice_ sometimes in the same country,
> enormous differences in life expectancy and life quality between people
> living cities and people living in mountainous areas.
> In India, the provence of Himachet Pradech it gross income is only 1/2
> of that of the whole of India. The difference in gross income between
> Manilla and the Mindanoa- area is also 1/2.
> Also, Nepal, Laos and Birma are mountainous countries and their
> gross income is serious lower than average and they stand economical
> weak.
>
> If there is than none political system which share out what little of
> food they can harvest tensions will built up. To escape from poverty
> extremes are than possible.
> A coincidence, but one that is in fact none, will that the almost com-
> plete production of heroin and cocaine occurs in mountainous areas_
> Peru, Columbia, Bolivia, Laos, Cambodia,Thailand, Pakistan.
> Why this coincidence ?
> There exist a conjunction between the soil and the climate but also the
> socio- cultural influences are playing their part.
> Misery, poverty, suppression and economical arrears are making that
> drugs and thus the traffic in drugs are one way to get an income.
>
> It seems of course very evident that the mountains themselves are not
> to blaim, but rightly the low standard of life.
> It must be also very evident that the political system of those countries
> play its part, but also the culture, the social and political environment
> of
> those countries which do import the drugs are playing an important role.
> We can also assume examples which do work the other way round, like
> Chili and Argentina, but Austria and France too where the mountains
> do provide an income for their residents due to their touristic appeal.
> The mountains do give tourism thus a push in the right direction, but
> tourism itself helps the mountains and the people to develop themselves
> further.
>
> There is thus no strict geographic determinism, but there is well a
> certain
> specialization, with its low profits, its sparse population, thus almost
> none infrastructure, thus the people are kept from the central decision
> making processes and from development aid programs and thus are
> in fact marginalised.
> Governments do have the tendency to look at people living in moun-
> tainous terrain as those who do not want to express their willingness
> to work for the general/ regional interest.
> They don 't want to become modern, they say !!
>
> In myths and legends the sea is often compared with openness, with
> having a view upon eternity and the world.
> Mountains were often compared with being enclosed upon themselves,
> with having a view directed to the skies.
>
> (This is adpated from a TV- show)
>
> Now the questions,
>
> Is there a specific memetic development for such areas thinkable !?
> Highly probable there is, so can we derive a Memetic Determinism
> from this !?
> And if so, do there exist other areas and/ of specific scientific/ social/
> political/ cultural distinctions which can hide a Memetic Determinsm!?
> How would we define Memetic Determinism !?
>
> Is there a Memetic Determinism for cities like London and Milan (
> fashion),
> New York ( theatre/ the stock exchange), Washington ( The White House),
> Moscow ( Kremlin), Peking ( capital city of the yellow danger) or
> Brussels ( capital of the European decision making process) !?
>
> Can we determine a Memetic Determinism for countries like the USA,
> Russia, China, Cuba or England, and if so out what consist this !?
>
> Can we indeed determine a Memetic Determinism for people like
> Bush, Putin or Fidel or Kennedy ( I am a Berliner) or for Luther King
> ( I have a dream) !?
>
> Can we in fact determine a Memetic Determinism for technologies,
> ideas, fashions, habits, traits, definitions !?
>
> Is there a Memetic Determinism involved in cases like suicide, murder!?
> Is there a Memetic Determinism involved in things like ethics and
> morality!?
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Kenneth
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
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>
>
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