Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id WAA13479 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:38:49 +0100 From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:41:31 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Logic + universal evolution Message-ID: <3B7D493B.17814.343E86@localhost> In-reply-to: <003b01c12751$5aae6f60$db86b2d1@teddace> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 17 Aug 2001, at 12:18, Dace wrote:
> > TD:
> > Obviously. The question is how the birds manage to maintain the
> > right distance, particularly when the whole flock turns on a dime.
> > Either the brain is running an incredbly elaborate motion program or
> > the flock is a morphic field in which the birds are "particles."
> > While the latter possibility might strike you as being "weird," the
> > former possibility would require neural computing processes
> > unimaginably more powerful and rapid than anything humans have ever
> > devised.
> >
> > JD:
> > No, just rapid reaction time, and the reaction times of birds, like
> > their heartbeats, are a lot faster than ours, crerating the illusion
> > that they are all changing direction at the same time when actually
> > there is a small reaction time involved.
> >
> Chris:
> > Have a look round for a boids variant (most have probably seen it
> > already): Simple sim of birds (from The Bronx I suppose) with a
> > handful of rules (stay a rough distance from your neighbour, etc.)
> > and they do most of the things all flocks do - it looks really
> > organic, but needs no 'hand of god' style guiding force.
>
> Yes, all you need is a simple set of rules to account for this kind of
> behavior. But different species of birds produce different patterns
> of group-flight. Why this particular pattern on not another? Why do
> the birds all go left and not right, or right and not left? You're
> arguing from abstraction. It's not enough to account for the general
> outlines. We've got to fill in the details. A simple set of rules
> doesn't explain the specific flocking behavior of a specific set of
> birds any more than their rapid reaction time.
>
Because of the original outside stimulus perceived at the periphery
of the flock, combined with the execution of the simple rules that
cause the domino-effect co-ordination of reaction.
>
> > As for the intentionality of the
> > flock, just watch some crowd violence to see how these
> > para-democratic decisions are made.
>
> As this list demonstrates, humans are no less vulnerable than birds to
> collective mentality and behavior.
>
Here, we tend to collectively reject crank pseudoscience; other
lists, of course, embrace it.
>
> Ted
>
>
> ===============================================================
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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