Re: Information

From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Mon May 14 2001 - 20:33:07 BST

  • Next message: Robin Faichney: "Re: Information"

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    From: <joedees@bellsouth.net>
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    Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 14:33:07 -0500
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    Subject: Re: Information
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    References: <3AFC51FB.28858.10E8C8E@localhost>; from joedees@bellsouth.net on Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:56:27PM -0500
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    On 14 May 2001, at 17:38, Robin Faichney wrote:

    > On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:56:27PM -0500, joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
    > > On 9 May 2001, at 12:50, Robin Faichney wrote: > > > information
    > theory: The study of information by mathematical > > methods.
    > Informally, information can be considered as the extent > > to which
    > a message conveys what was previously unknown, and so is > > new or
    > surprising. Mathematically, the rate at which information > > is
    > conveyed from a source is identified with entropy of the > > source
    > (per second or per symbol). Although information theory > > is
    > sometimes restricted to the entropy formulation of sources > > and
    > channels, it sometimes includes coding theory, in which > > case the
    > term is used synonymously with communication theory. > > [Dictionary
    > of Computing, Oxford Science Publications, 1986] > > > > All of the
    > techniques of communication theory apply to any stream of > > symbols
    > regardless of their meaning, or even if they have none. All > > that
    > is required of each "symbol" (you might think that word > >
    > inappropriate if it has no meaning, but that doesn't matter) is that >
    > > it have some particular probability of occurring. > > > If something
    > has no meaning, how can it communicate that which > was previously
    > unknown?
    >
    > It can't. Information is not a particular thing whose attributes
    > cannot conflict with one another -- "information", on the other hand,
    > is a word that can be, and is, used in various ways, some of which are
    > quite different from each other. Communication theory, as that term
    > is normally, consensually used, is about the fundamentals of
    > communication: what's required *before* meaning can be conveyed.
    >
    And that which is being conveyed has SOME meaning to qualify as
    INFORMation, plus it must be conveyed to someone in order to
    INFORM.
    >
    > > > But in any case, to try to be dogmatic about definitions is
    > > > futile. And to imagine ontological arguments where there are
    > > > really only semantic and methodological ones is ridiculous. To
    > > > say "there is no information 'out there'" is practically
    > > > meaningless. Whether it can be useful to treat material structure
    > > > as if it were information could be a worthwhile argument. But
    > > > you're too busy insisting "there is no information 'out there'" to
    > > > take part in it.
    > > >
    > > But it ISN'T 'out there'; it is a function of the interrrelation
    > > between the onserver and the observed, or the sender and the
    > > receiver, thus if it has no 'in here' correlate, it can not have an
    > > 'out there' correlate, either. You may dogmatically embrace a naive
    > > platonic informational "form" if you wish, but the
    > > phenomenologically informed know that it's not that simple, nor can
    > > it be so simplistically reduced.
    >
    > Nobody is messing with your concept of information, Joe! But you
    > should face up to the fact that there are other ways in which that
    > word is used. Equivocation is unfortunate, but it's also a fact of
    > life.
    >
    One can use the word "whale" to mean the animal typically called
    a camel, but don't try to cross a desert with one.
    > --
    > Robin Faichney
    > Get your Meta-Information from http://www.ii01.org
    > (CAUTION: contains philosophy, may cause heads to spin)
    >
    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    >
    >
    >

    ===============================================================
    This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit



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