Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id UAA17085 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 14 May 2001 20:30:50 +0100 From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 14:33:07 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Information Message-ID: <3AFFECA3.3869.10F66F@localhost> In-reply-to: <20010514173813.A447@ii01.org> References: <3AFC51FB.28858.10E8C8E@localhost>; from joedees@bellsouth.net on Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:56:27PM -0500 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 14 May 2001, at 17:38, Robin Faichney wrote:
> On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:56:27PM -0500, joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > On 9 May 2001, at 12:50, Robin Faichney wrote: > > > information
> theory: The study of information by mathematical > > methods.
> Informally, information can be considered as the extent > > to which
> a message conveys what was previously unknown, and so is > > new or
> surprising. Mathematically, the rate at which information > > is
> conveyed from a source is identified with entropy of the > > source
> (per second or per symbol). Although information theory > > is
> sometimes restricted to the entropy formulation of sources > > and
> channels, it sometimes includes coding theory, in which > > case the
> term is used synonymously with communication theory. > > [Dictionary
> of Computing, Oxford Science Publications, 1986] > > > > All of the
> techniques of communication theory apply to any stream of > > symbols
> regardless of their meaning, or even if they have none. All > > that
> is required of each "symbol" (you might think that word > >
> inappropriate if it has no meaning, but that doesn't matter) is that >
> > it have some particular probability of occurring. > > > If something
> has no meaning, how can it communicate that which > was previously
> unknown?
>
> It can't. Information is not a particular thing whose attributes
> cannot conflict with one another -- "information", on the other hand,
> is a word that can be, and is, used in various ways, some of which are
> quite different from each other. Communication theory, as that term
> is normally, consensually used, is about the fundamentals of
> communication: what's required *before* meaning can be conveyed.
>
And that which is being conveyed has SOME meaning to qualify as
INFORMation, plus it must be conveyed to someone in order to
INFORM.
>
> > > But in any case, to try to be dogmatic about definitions is
> > > futile. And to imagine ontological arguments where there are
> > > really only semantic and methodological ones is ridiculous. To
> > > say "there is no information 'out there'" is practically
> > > meaningless. Whether it can be useful to treat material structure
> > > as if it were information could be a worthwhile argument. But
> > > you're too busy insisting "there is no information 'out there'" to
> > > take part in it.
> > >
> > But it ISN'T 'out there'; it is a function of the interrrelation
> > between the onserver and the observed, or the sender and the
> > receiver, thus if it has no 'in here' correlate, it can not have an
> > 'out there' correlate, either. You may dogmatically embrace a naive
> > platonic informational "form" if you wish, but the
> > phenomenologically informed know that it's not that simple, nor can
> > it be so simplistically reduced.
>
> Nobody is messing with your concept of information, Joe! But you
> should face up to the fact that there are other ways in which that
> word is used. Equivocation is unfortunate, but it's also a fact of
> life.
>
One can use the word "whale" to mean the animal typically called
a camel, but don't try to cross a desert with one.
> --
> Robin Faichney
> Get your Meta-Information from http://www.ii01.org
> (CAUTION: contains philosophy, may cause heads to spin)
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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