Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA07669 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:33:25 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745DA0@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Determinism Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:29:58 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
If we're talking films for philosophers, then someone suggested to me that
Terrance Malick's 'The Thin Red Line' was, for them, about as close as
you'll get to Heidegger on film. I kinda saw what they meant...
Seems to me to be a film, in its treatment of individuals responses to
events, that isn't irrelevant to this discussion.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Scott Chase
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 12:17 am
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Determinism
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk>
> >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >Subject: Re: Determinism
> >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:00:14 +0100
> >
> >On Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 10:05:24AM -0400, Scott Chase wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I suppose you're not intrigued by the plot of that wondrous
> >Berkeleyian
> > > >(the
> > > > > idealist not the university) movie _The Matrix_?
> > > >
> > > >I very much enjoyed that film, but no way is it "Berkeleyian".
> People
> >are
> > > >fed a false reality, but there is a real reality out there.
> (Otherwise
> > > >there couldn't be a false one, could there?)
> > > >
> > > It's been a while since I read Berkeley, so I'm hesitant to go out too
>
> >far
> > > on a limb, but I did get the impression that you could co-opt his
> >arguments
> > > for God as the Mind which generates our reality with an argument based
>
> >on a
> > > virtual reality generating computer "mind". For Berkeley, to be is to
> be
> > > perceived (*esse is percipi*). For some to exist, it must be generated
>
> >by a
> > > mind, based on the argument that we can't distinguish objects from
> >ideas.
> > > Berkeley cannot be acccused of solipsism is that the reason thing do
> not
> > > cease to exist when we close our eyes is that they are being generated
>
> >in
> > > the mind of God. Again, substitute a computer in the place of God and
> >IMO
> > > you end up with _The Matrix_.
> >
> >If you're saying that the notion of such a pervasive and persuasive
> >virtual reality is Berkeleyian, then I guess it could be called that.
> >But my point was that what I take to be the most significant thing he
> >said -- that there is no other reality -- does not apply to The Matrix.
> >Of course, what's significant for me isn't necessarily significant
> >for you.
> >
> > > Added to Berkeley would be Schopenhauer's modification of Kant's
> > > phenomenal/noumenal distinction by hybridizing it with the web of Maya
>
> >ala
> > > the Vedas. The computer network ("web") in _The Matrix_ generates a
> >Mayan
> > > veil of illusory appearance. Only a few actually manage to wake up and
> > > experience the *ding in sich*.
> >
> >Which is decidedly unBerkeleyian.
> >
> OK, maybe Berkeley wouldn't have set the noumenal apart from the
> phenomenal,
> but at least for the context of the computer as taking the place of an
> Absolute Mind which generates reality, Berkeley might partially apply.
> Those
> objects that one experienced while hooked up within the Matrix were mere
> ideas implanted into the mind. They were immaterial and IIRC Berkeley was
> a
> hardcore immaterialist. Implanted ideas generated by a computer could not
> be
> distinguished from the material objects they represented. The objects
> weren't really there.
> >
> > > Maybe I'm shoehorning idealism where it don't belong....
> >
> >I think so. Sorry!
> >
> >
> Sans Schopenhauer's wanton pessimism, maybe _The Matrix_ is more
> Schopenhauerian. I'll need to delve back into Schopenhauer, but I think he
>
> had a spot for Berkeley in his philosophy. The world as idea...generated
> by
> a computer and implanted into one's mind.
>
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