Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA28853 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 4 Apr 2001 13:01:20 +0100 Message-ID: <00f801c0bcfe$47cff520$5eaefea9@rcn.com> From: "Aaron Agassi" <agassi@erols.com> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745D5E@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Determinism Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:56:27 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vincent Campbell" <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 7:45 AM
Subject: RE: Determinism
> Why does perfect knowledge negate freedom?
More precisely, perfect knowledge would negate choice. Because the more one
knows, this tends to narrow one's choices. -Down to the one optimal
decision, given adequate knowledge. And perfect knowledge would certainly be
adequate!
But I have argued that even this might not actually negate freedom, because:
Super Determinism is both necessary and sufficient for freedom.
After all, what sort of freedom would be sheer randomness?
Freedom is characterized by predictable behavior:
Give someone free reign over their impulses, and behavior will be
predictable, and we call them predictable. Likewise, loftier motives.
Because when we experience the greatest freedom in deciding choices, we say
that in so far as such is conceivable, had we to do it again, we'd do it
exactly the same. But when a person of principle is predictable, we call
them, instead, reliable.
>
> (BTW, this is not a challenge, just a question).
>
> Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: Robin Faichney
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2001 9:14 am
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: Determinism
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 05:46:17PM -0400, Aaron Agassi wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > The practical difficulties of the mapping aren't really
> > relevant.
> > > The
> > > > > > > point is that *in principle* if you could have perfect
knowledge
> > you
> > > > > > > could perfectly predict. There are no ghosts in any machines.
In
> > > > > > > practice we can only work within practical boundaries.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is, IN PRINCIPLE, impossible to have perfect knowledge. This
> > makes
> > > > > > your scenario meaningless.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Bullshit! The perfect knowledge here discussed is not a necessary
> > > premise
> > > > > for ant conclusion, but merely a hypothetical for the purpose of
> > > > > illustration of an idea difficult to express otherwise.
> > > > >
> > > > Uncertainty is both necessary and sufficient for freedom.
> > > >
> > > Just what is Uncertainty?
> >
> > Uncertainty is the state of not knowing. (Don't you have a dictionary,
> > Aaron?) Perfect knowledge negates freedom, but perfect knowledge is
> > acheivable neither in practice nor in theory, so freedom is not negated.
> >
> > As long as people try to understand freedom as a physical phenomenon,
> > confusion will reign.
> >
> > --
> > Robin Faichney
> > Get your Meta-Information from http://www.ii01.org
> > (CAUTION: contains philosophy, may cause heads to spin)
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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