Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id KAA23209 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:12:27 +0100 Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:53:13 +0100 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: The Demise of a Meme Message-ID: <20010403095313.A943@reborntechnology.co.uk> References: <3AC775A5.1846.2ADB13@localhost>; <20010402145922.A532@reborntechnology.co.uk> <3AC907FE.1718.307B17@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: <3AC907FE.1718.307B17@localhost>; from joedees@bellsouth.net on Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 11:15:10PM -0500 From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 11:15:10PM -0500, joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
> On 2 Apr 2001, at 14:59, Robin Faichney wrote:
>
> > But in any case, this is not an example of what I call "vertical
> > causation", and which I contend does not ever actually occur.
> > ("Vertical" there refers to hierarchical organisation, and has nothing
> > to do with sand pile slopes!) The 43.5 degree slope (I'm sure that
> > figure must vary between different types of sand) is certainly a
> > higher level feature than those of the individual grains, but the
> > slope in itself exerts no effect on them. The movements and eventual
> > disposition of each grain are affected only by those of the other
> > grains with which it comes into contact (as well as gravity etc). We
> > can measure the slope at the tipping point as 43.5 degrees, and the
> > consistent precision of that figure might tempt us to think of it as
> > specially significant -- and in a sense it is: it's quite fascinating
> > that the features of the individual grains, when aggregated, come to
> > this. But it is not causally effective. What is, is the relationship
> > between each and every grain that is, or comes into, contact with each
> > other. Which is why, as I say, the angle of the slope will vary with
> > the features of the individual grains. It is just an overview, a
> > simplification, of all the relationships between all the individual
> > grains in the pile.
> >
> Briefly stopped back in. If the sand grains were spread out wide on
> a table so that they were not heaped, the new grains falling would
> act differently than they do when dropped upon a slope comprised
> of many contiguous grains; this differential behavior is indeed
> caused by the table grains being in a different configuration.
You said it yourself: "If the sand grains were spread out wide..." What
matters are the grains and the relationships between them (and the table,
and gravity). The pile and its slope are just simplified overviews
of the individual grains and their relationships. Obviously, the
arrangement matters, but that (singular) arrangement is just our handle
on the (extremely plural) grains and their relationships. No grain is
affected in any way by the tipping point. What happens is, one grain
is knocked into by another falling from above, transmits that force to
the three upon which it sits, whereupon one of them, presently balanced
a little precariously, is dislodged... The tipping point, from this
point of view, is an epiphenomenon.
-- Robin Faichney Get your Meta-Information from http://www.ii01.org (CAUTION: contains philosophy, may cause heads to spin)=============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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