Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id AAA06539 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:34:18 GMT From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:37:02 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The Demise of a Meme Message-ID: <3AB7A34E.31712.C00AEB@localhost> In-reply-to: <003e01c0b199$de22a920$25d910ac@oemcomputer> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 21 Mar 2001, at 11:59, Brent Silby wrote:
> Richard wrote:"Memetic selection and purposive design are by no means
> mutually exclusive."
>
> I guess it depends on what you take "purposive design" to mean. If by
> "purposive design" you mean the evolution of ideas through the
> interaction with existing memes, then you could be right.
>
And also with the innate tendencies, strengths and weaknesses
with which we, as unique, non-tabula-rasa individuals, are both
blessed and cursed to be born, as well as the sometimes
counterintuitive choices we make which experientially tend to belie
the caught-in-a-machine lockstep stance of superdeterminism, as if
complexity theory had not already been enough to blow that
abstract ideality out of the concretely real water of experience.
>
> My hesitation in using terminology like "design", "creative",
> "purposive" is that it sort of removes a feature of the human mind
> from the memetic equation. In doing this you end up with the
> following picture: on the one hand you have a bunch of memes that
> inhabit the mind -- or more precisely, build a mind. While on the
> other hand you have some part of the mind that is separate and can
> "direct" the activity of the memes.
>
C'mon, Brent; 'mind' and 'soul' are not the same thing; mind does
not possess an existence independent of the generating physical
substrate mind from which it emerges. Mind is not metaphysical,
but very much physical. The mind, which has its form (self-
conscious awareness) filled with experiential content can
nevertheless consider that content when deciding whether or not to
accept a further meme. They (form and content) are two
interrelated, mutually correlating and mutually grounding sides of
the single human coin. The memes do not 'build' a mind per se so
much as determine what kind of architecture will adorn an
otherwise simple and barren, yet pre-existent house. The
architecture will, of course, to a great measure determine the
purposes to which the house can be put, but if one's house is, say,
genetically mathematics-deficient, no amount of building upon it
(education) will stick; the added structures will simply fall away,
and the rubble will prove insufficient for the person to teach
graduate-level number theory.
>
> I prefer to think of the memetic process as self explanatory, not
> requiring the interference of a mind that is somehow removed from the
> equation.
>
But the mind, the dynamically recursive patterning that emerges
from the physical substrate brain, is NOT removed from the
equation, but inextricably intertwined within it. Sperryian top-down
control is a PET-scan verified scientific fact, conscious self-
awareness is logically prior to the ability to symbolically represent
referents, and they are both prior to the capacity to freely and self-
awarely choose between competing memes.
>
> Brent.
> ------------------------
> Brent Silby 2001
> Memetics Research
> and Engineering Project
>
> [Feel free to visit my sites]
> [BasePage]: http://www.geocities.com/brent_silby
> [Collective Intelligence]:
> http://globeclubs.theglobe.com/the_collective-L/list.taf
>
> Room 601a
> Department of Philosophy
> University of Canterbury
> Email: b.silby@phil.canterbury.ac.nz
> __________________________________________
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Brodie
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 11:22 AM
> Subject: RE: The Demise of a Meme
>
>
> Brent wrote:
>
>
>
> << Crafted? I'm not sure if that is the best word to use, as it
> implies purposive design. But, of course, scientific memes were not
> "designed", they are the result of natural memetic selection. It is
> accidental that science, or any other memeplex, is comprised of its
> collection of memes. It could have been a lot different -- in fact
> it has been during certain periods of history. Its just that
> science's current range of memes happen to be more successful
> self-replicators than some of their competing memes.>>
>
>
>
> Memetic selection and purposive design are by no means mutually
> exclusive.
>
>
>
>
>
> Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com www.memecentral.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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