Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id FAA04693 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 9 Mar 2001 05:12:18 GMT Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010308230640.0080d330@mailhost.rongenet.sk.ca> X-Sender: hawkeye@mailhost.rongenet.sk.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:06:40 -0600 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk, memetics@mmu.ac.uk From: Lloyd Robertson <hawkeye@rongenet.sk.ca> Subject: Re: Are there any memes out there? In-Reply-To: <3AA6FC7A.12625.1617933@localhost> References: <20010308082212.A990@reborntechnology.co.uk> <3.0.5.32.20010307192147.007fc900@mailhost.rongenet.sk.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
At 03:28 AM 08/03/01 -0600, joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 07:21:47PM -0600, Lloyd Robertson wrote:
>> > Interesting, until recently I was of the opinion that memes existed
>> > both inside and outside the head, in different forms. Now I am
>> > tending to believe that memes do not exist in either place -
>> > artifacts, behaviors and neural patterning are all phenotypes. What
>> > do you think?
>>
>> I belong to the camp that believes it's generally misleading and
>> unproductive to seek very close parallels between genetics and
>> memetics, but in fact this is not too far from my view -- I see memes
>> as *encoded* in artifacts, behaviour and neural patterns, so to view
>> these as memetic phenotypes -- memotypes, if you like -- is maybe not
>> *too* misleading.
>>
>There can be no memes (messages or meanings) separate from
>carrier and code, or physical substrate and its configuration. This
>applies equally to neural patterns, behaviors (including speech
>acts), and artifacts, including but not restricted to texts (for
>instance, tools stand for their uses).
>> --
From a purely materialist viewpoint you are absolutely correct, Joe. But an
intelligent fish might equally conclude that no existance is possible
outside of his oceanic universe. I am not using this analogy to justify
some religious fantasy, just to remind us to remain tentative in our
conclusions.
Now we certainly cannot be aware of any memes except by their memotype. On
the other hand an artist "in flow" often has the sensation that his hands
are being "other directed" or that the words just have to go in a particlar
direction, the logic of the words, not the mind, dictate a result. A
memetic explanatiion would be a a set of memes attract other compatible
memes while repelling others. The mew memes simply come to our awareness as
they attach themselves to the existing complex.
Another example would involve the development of self. A poor self-concept
attracts other negative memes that reinforce and intensify the original
while repelling positive memes. The individual does not consciously decide
to create a negative self-concept. It just develops. Personality, thus
developed can be changed but only with great effort.
While we can say that most of these memes come from other people or
artifacts the fact is new memes may be generated without this influence and
without the conscious effort of the individual to create same. So, without
saying that there is an ethereal mememtic plane of existence somewhere we
have to allow for the possibility that either memes may exist in some form
beyond our conscious awareness or that they have some mechanism of
spontaineous generation.
I am suggesting that we look at this a bit more.
Lloyd
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