Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id EAA17588 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:55:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.240.221.118] From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: fitness and stability Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:52:58 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F83OBaxSljMx9OGHKVw00005b6f@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Feb 2001 04:52:59.0195 (UTC) FILETIME=[29B348B0:01C09BC2] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
>Subject: RE: fitness and stability
>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:22:52 -0000
>
> >>Robin Faichney:
> > >>The difference between living and non-living entities is that, with
> > life,
> > >>we have stable items of information, as opposed to mere matter.
> >
> <Scratching at definitions yet again, it would appear that with
>life, what
> > we _don't_ have is stability, but rather the ability to fit, be
>maleable.>
> >
> It strikes me that there are two elements to this question of
>fitness and stability. One is the actual relevance of the phrase 'survival
>of the fittest' in the first place, whoever coined it, as it is actually
>tautological- what survives that is not fit and vice versa? What is the
>principle behind the use of that phrase that one is trying to invoke? (in
>other words what started this thread?)
>
> The second element is a question of time, and what constitutes a
>significant/legitimate period of relative stability. If one acknowledges a
>lack of absolute stability, what is the importance of any period of
>relative
>stability, however that is defined?
>
> It would seem reasonable to suggest that for biology, environmental
>change generally occurs at a slow enough rate to enable some organisms to
>remain virtually unchanged for long periods of time (e.g. bacteria in
>ice-packs etc.), and allow some organisms to have long periods between
>generations- surely this couldn't happen if environments changed very
>rapidly and in ways that couldn't be dealt with by behavioural changes in
>organisms.
>
> But with culture, and memes if they exist, the parameters of
>environment are more incohate at the moment to be able to judge what
>constitutes stability. It seems to me perfectly correct to talk about
>environmental fitness of memes, but what factors constitute environmental
>pressures on memes, IMHO, seems much more difficult at this stage anyway to
>pin down. This is particularly the case for things like popular phrases,
>whether mis-remembered or not, which whilst undoubtedly present are more
>difficult to discuss in terms of the factors that produced them as
>phenomena. Saying they were/are environmentally fit is descriptive not
>explanatory.
>
> Anyway, there's my tuppence worth.
>
>
Traditions are relatively stable. One needs only to look at Britain for an
example of stability in the cultural realm. Monarchy isn't quite what it
used to be, but the concept of royalty hangs around like a vermiform
appendix if you will. The crown ain't quite what it was back in the time of
_Braveheart_, it's but a vestige of its former self, but it will likely
remain as a ceremonial throwback to a bygone era. Would fitness be a
consideration?
Though the faces and specific policies change, the U.S. governmental
institutions, such as the presidency, congress, and supreme court are fairly
stable entities. I don't think they're going anywhere for quite a long time.
They are quite fit.
Stability doesn't entail something lasting forever or being immortal, just
long enough to count. I guess it comes down to time scale. In the big
picture our species is but a mere flicker of a candle flame.
Holidays are fairly stable too. Thankgiving and football (the real kind)
have become a co-adapted staple of Americana. I don't think Christmas is
going anywhere for a while, though its meaning may have wavered somewhat.
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