Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA26762 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:24:36 GMT Message-ID: <3A6F28E4.F831CF79@clara.co.uk> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:11:34 +0000 From: Douglas Brooker <dbrooker@clara.co.uk> Organization: University of London X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: objective/subjective inversion References: <LPBBICPHCJJBPJGHGMCIEENJCMAA.ddiamond@ozemail.com.au> <00f701c081fe$021cebe0$5eaefea9@cable.rcn.com> <3A695604.DF0C5ADF@clara.co.uk> <20010121150343.B2340@reborntechnology.co.uk> <3A6C8169.35A54C2E@clara.co.uk> <20010123135837.A352@reborntechnology.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Robin, here is a relevant bit from X OED at 643 re "objective"
Start quotation (italics and other formatting have been lost in the extract
below)
===================================================
2. Philos. Used of the existence or nature of a thing as an object of
consciousness (as distinguished from an existence or nature termed subjective).
[OED note]: The Scholastic Philosophy made the distinction between what belongs
to things subjectively (subjective -Latin accents omitted), or as they are 'in
themselves', and what belongs to them objectively (objective - Latin accents
omitted) ), as they are presented to consciousness. In later times the custom of
considering the perceiving or thinking consciousness as pre-eminently 'the
subject' brought about a different use of these words, which now prevails in
philosophical language. According to this, what is considered as belonging to
the perceiving or thinking self is called subjective, and what is considered as
independent of the perceiving or thinking self is called in contrast objective.
As to this transition of use (which primarily concerns the word subjective) and
affects objective as its antithesis) resulting in what is almost an exchange of
sense between the two adjective, see HAMILTON Reid's Wks. 806 note, R.L.
Nettleship Phil. Lect. & Remains I.193.
a. Opposed to subjective in the older sense = 'in itself': Existing as an object
of consciousness as distinct from having any real existence; considered only as
presented to the mind (not as it is, or may be, in itself or its own nature).
Obs.
Omitting: c.1325 quote from OCCAM Sent. 1. Dict. 2, qu *E
1647 Jer. Taylor Lib. Prop. 133 [Wade note - is this a reference to Liberal?]
[Other quotes omitted]
b. Opposed to subjective in the modern sense: That is or belongs to what is
presented to consciousness, as opposed to the consciousness itself; that is the
object of perception or thought, as distinct from the perceiving or thinking
subject; hence that is, or has the character of being, a 'thing' external to the
mind, real.
[OED note]: This sense is occasional in writers of the later 17th and early 18th
c. (the early examples being more or less transitional); but its current use
appears to be derived from Kant, and to appear in Eng. subsequently to 1790, and
chiefly after 1817 (see quot. from Coleridge).
[all quotes omitted.]
===========================================
End quotation
An interesting enquiry would be to explore writers since 1817, particularly 20th
C. and see if there is extensive quotation of writers using the earlier use
without recognition that this inversion had occurred.
Robin Faichney wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 06:52:26PM +0000, Douglas Brooker wrote:
> > Robin Faichney wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 09:10:30AM +0000, Douglas Brooker wrote:
> > > >
> > > > About 100 years ago the meanings of 'objective' and 'subjective' became
> > > > inverted.
> > >
> > > Can you back up that claim?
> >
> > see "objective" in X OED (2d)
>
> I don't have OED access until I next visit the local Uni library.
> Could you cut'n'paste or type in the relevant bit? I find this very
> interesting.
>
> --
> Robin Faichney
> robin@reborntechnology.co.uk
>
> ===============================================================
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===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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