Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA02497 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:46:10 +0100 Message-ID: <023201c032fd$cbfc5400$7e21e7d8@proftim> From: "Tim Rhodes" <proftim@speakeasy.org> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Perishable artifacts (from: Re: the conscious universe) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:03:46 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Richard wrote:
[TR]<<I'm
specifically interested in the variation and selection aspects of "how
memetic evolution really works" and how you see that play itself out>>
[RB]<<<I'm interested in that too. I kind of thought I explained my views on
that in my 250-page book so I'm unsure exactly what level of detail you are
looking for.>>>
We've all read you book and it's proved to be a wonderful launching point
for all the discussions in memetics that have followed it; without it we
couldn't have gotten this far so quickly. Thank you. But, well... it's not
1995 anymore. So, I guess my (somewhat overly pointed sounding) question
is, "Will your second memetics book have any case studies to support it's
theories? Or will it trace the lineage's of any memes through their
historical twists and turns?"
[TR]<<As I see it, where it is possible that it may be a smaller subset
within the community of individuals who consume culture, it is nevertheless
the *major* set within the communities of those actively engaged in the
creating & manufacturing of culture -- to whom the consumer is largely seen
as simply another selection pressure.>>
[RB]<<<I don't see this at all. My friends who create art, music, and so on
are influenced by a lifetime of experiences and tend to innovate rather than
duplicate artifacts.>>>
I think this belief on your part is both true and misguided, depending on
the level of examination.
Yes, looking at the overall, finished output of any artist it would seem
that their creative work is informed by their entire lifetime of experience.
But if we get more specific it becomes very easy in virtually all cases to
identify specific techniques within those works that have been adopted from
others, whether those be a type of brushstroke, a line quality, a use of
light, a turn of phrase, a rhyming scheme, a narrative structure, a dance
move, a type font, or even a novel trick for writing code. These more
technical aspects of the creative process have their fads and fashions that
sweep through creative communities just like any other. Where we part ways
perhaps, is that I believe these smaller, more detailed cases of replication
(of technique or phrase or style) are the memetic foundation of innovation;
the basic interactions from which the more overarching qualities you so
enjoy studying in fact emerge.
The history of music, for example, is as much a history of technological
development and the diffusion of those innovations as it is a study in the
evolution of music theory generally.
[RB]<<<I think you could look at, for instance, knock-offs of designer
clothes as self-replicating artifacts. Or the Eiffel tower. But again, I
don't think this explains as much of cultural evolution as the reverse,
[snip]>>>
I agree. That's why I wish you'd have a heart and give that particular
strawman a well deserved rest.
I have a friend who just returned from Germany after studying a rare egg
tempera technique for three years under a 70 year-old master who is the last
living expert on this particular use of medium; a technique that has been
handed down from master to pupil since the early Renaissance. If, in 20
years time, I were to do a memetic analysis of my friends work, I believe --
and I hope you will agree -- that looking at specific instances of
transmission, such as the vector through which this technique reached him,
would prove much more fruitful than simply invoking "a lifetime of
experiences" as an explanation of his work.
[RB]<<Actually, I think as time goes on neither memes nor artifacts will be
as important as complex mind viruses composed of both.>>
Now, that's the Richard I know and love! Gettin' out there ahead of the
curve to redefine the what everyone is talking about (G-meme/L-meme
interactions) in his own terms, before getting left behind. Pure
genius, as always! :-)
-Tim Rhodes
===================
Tim Rhodes
memes@sil2k.org
Eyes, Ears & Memes, SIL2K
Strategic Improv Laboratories 2000
www.sil2k.org
===================
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