Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA00637 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:29:20 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745A82@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: the conscious universe Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:26:23 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Hi Richard,
I should just preface this by saying that I tend to reply to messages in
order of reception, so if there's been loads of debate about this that makes
the comments below redundant then I apologise (there are loads of posts so
they probably are).
Yeah, I think there's something mental going on as well, it's just that I'm
no neuroscientist, and from some of the discussions on this list I never
will be, so I just meant that for me to operationalise the concept in
research terms would mean examining manifest behaviours and messages (e.g.
media content and audiences responses to it).
Of course, that may mean that any research I did would have a hole in it at
the black box level of individual minds, but that's for others to fill in.
I've stated many times before where I see a gap that fits my discipline's
capacity to contribute to memetics, and sometimes I think the focus on
individuals and the minds/brain processes underplays what I see as the
central element of memetics, which is not simply about how an idea gets from
one mind to another, but how social movements/trends originate and spread.
That means that as important as examining information/ideational transfer
between individuals is, the main point is how an idea spreads through large
masses of people. I think there are social psychology elements here, which
would involve things like group and organisational communication (for which
of course there's already lots of theories and research) as well as mass
communication (again subject to lots of theories and research that needs to
be addressed).
What was worrying me, I guess, was the degree to which a non-neuroscientific
or non-psychological approach would be dismissed out of hand, or perhaps
even that memetics may split into different disciplinary traditions,
exploring very different aspects of what began as a relatively
straightforward idea (however flawed). On the other hand this may simply
make it a perfectly acceptable focal variable field, useable in all sorts of
frameworks and contexts.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Richard Brodie
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Friday, October 6, 2000 3:08 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: the conscious universe
>
> Vincent wrote:
>
> <<your designation of memes as cultural
> artefacts best suits me, because it allows for social scientific research
> methodologies (i.e. testing of manifest social phenomena, be it pokemon,
> or
> particular news stories that run and run).>>
>
> While there are strong methodological arguments for creating definitions
> that support easy research, there are two problems with defining "meme" as
> cultural artifact. In the first place, that's not the definition that the
> coiners of the term had in mind and so it causes confusion versus using a
> different word (like artifacts) to refer to such artifacts. Secondly, many
> have seen the value in examining the meme per its Dawkins/Dennett/Brodie
> definition, as mental information, even though it may be much more
> difficult
> to acquire data, because they think that definition is closer to how
> memetic
> evolution really works. Mental programming influences behavior, which in
> turn influences the mental programming of others. The subset of cultural
> evolution that is determined by the inverse-artifact influences mind,
> which
> goes out and creates another copy of the artifact-seems to be a small
> subset.
>
>
> Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com www.memecentral.com
>
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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