Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id JAA00714 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:23:30 +0100 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000922232741.01d16600@popmail.mcs.net> X-Sender: aaron@popmail.mcs.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 12:17:43 -0500 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk From: Aaron Lynch <aaron@mcs.net> Subject: RE: First Appearances In-Reply-To: <LAW2-OE5UPSIk8LPB5J00000745@hotmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1954898==_.ALT" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
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At 04:56 PM 9/22/00 +0100, Paul Marsden wrote:
>Richard:
>
>I believe Dawkins first proposed that memes were internal mental
>information. In The Extended Phenotype he revised his earlier definition
>from The Selfish Gene. I used a similar definition in Virus of the Mind.
>Paul:
>
>Yes - it is interesting that just as population genetics and molecular
>genetics are two different models, so too is their a similar symmetry in
>memetics (population) macro memetics, - and micro memetics that
>operationalises the concept in a way consistent with the original coining
>as genes of meaning, semantic nodes in Memory. An error in my opinion
>would be to conflate the two.
>
>You might ask how the latter is Darwinian? Well, the Darwinian theory of
>creativity involves the mutation, recombination, semanitic drift of
>networks of genes of meaning to generate original innovations.
>
Paul,
Richard is right to point out that Dawkins gave a clarification in The
Extended Phenotype, but he had also introduced the word in 1976 by saying
that "We need a name for the new replicator, a noun that conveys the idea
of a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation," later
explaining that he meant imitation "in the broad sense." I think that the
context created by the older words mimesis and mimetic may have played a
role in generating expectations in some that external behaviors should be
"memes" but internal information should not. The linguistic problem is that
while one can in principle "coin" the word "mime" to signify a "unit of
mimesis," the word "mime" is already taken, and assigned meanings outside
of zoology and biology. So we could not go with a scheme where, for
instance, an internal behavioral replicator (beliefs, ideas, memory items,
viewed as "static" or as "processes") could be called a "meme" while an
external behavioral replicator (visible ways of doing things, of using
things, etc.) could be called a "mime." But having a mere linguistic quirk
decide that there should be an "internalist" "memetics" but not an
"externalist" "mimetics" is not an appropriate way for setting the course
of scientific disciplines and specializations. Such a terminological
imbalance (inequity?) may have played an underlying role in the rationale
for using the same word for quite different kinds of replicators, and hence
Tim's introduction of L-memes and G-memes--following much discussion,
paper-writing, commentaries, etc. as many of us can still recall.
As Wade announced earlier, another dictionary (the Academic Press
Dictionary of Science and Technology) has come forth with a definition of
meme, and again added to the great diversity of often contradictory forms
that have sprung forth from Dawkins's 1976 book. Comparisons to the
Cambrian explosion come to mind, but that may be a bit exaggerated. I would
attribute this profusion of definitions not to an inherently high mutation
rate for definitions, (i.e., low copying fidelity), but rather, to the 1976
book not explicitly stating an unambiguous definition--despite the book's
many statements made about memes and ways to use the term. The dictionary
does seem to be trying to contain the explosion of definitions, but I agree
with Mark that their effort will probably not result in consensus on what
the word means.
To further answer Joe's original question, I am not aware of "L-meme" or
"G-meme" being used in articles or books, although I have not done a
thorough search.
--Aaron Lynch
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