Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA00911 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:22:55 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:44:17 +0100 From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: mysticism etc Message-ID: <20000922134417.A2069@reborntechnology.co.uk> References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745A41@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745A41@inchna.stir.ac.uk>; from v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk on Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 11:02:52AM +0100 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
You should probably read the last paragraph of this message before
replying to it.
On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 11:02:52AM +0100, Vincent Campbell wrote:
> >I already told you, there's no "secret knowledge", but that
> particular
> >dig is just too tempting, isn't it? Not that giving in to such
> temptation
> >is particularly rational, but there you go.
>
> It is 'secret' because according to the position it can only be revealed
> through the practice and can't be articulated in a verbal manner. The line
> then becomes 'I can't tell you- you must just do'. When the skeptical
> student asks 'why?', the answer is 'you'll find out when you do it'. When
> the student does it but doesn't get any noticeable response, the mystic then
> says 'Oh, well you're probably not doing it right'. The student then says
> 'well please tell me how to do it right', and the mystic 'I cannot tell you
> how to do it correctly, you just must practice until you get it'.
OK, so how to ride a bike is "secret knowledge" too.
> Like I said, I'm not Mr Spock :-) I do think there's a difference though
> between doing something for its physiological benefits, and then turning
> that into The Answer.
How about an approach that says most of our troubles are, at root,
psychological, and then offers a practice with psychological benefits?
> Why does it all fall away if it's metaphorical? To take up your point below
> about even the idea of Jesus being the son of God being a metaphor; well if
> that's the case, then God can be a metaphor, and if God is metaphorical then
> God is simply an idea. Why give it all the weight of your entire life when
> it's simply an idea, a theory, without actually thinking about the evidence
> for it?
The question is: what's it a metaphor for? All ideas are "just" ideas,
and that includes rationality, objectivity, reality, etc. But some
ideas are more important than others because of what they stand for.
I mentioned in passing that I didn't believe in God unless maybe that
meant Reality or even Us -- I'm actually quite serious about that.
I think much God-talk makes sense if that word is taken to mean reality
as a whole. I believe that some religions, properly practiced and
understood, do help us relate to reality -- although I know that will
upset the typical atheist! So it's not a matter of putting such emphasis
on a mere idea, but on the idea of Reality -- or whatever it is that
"God" means for you. And even for those who literally "believe in
God", what's actually important about that for them is, of course, its
psychological significance, not its ontological status. Psychology is
what it's ALL about. It's just a pity neither the fundamentalists nor
the atheists can appreciate that. Both take it all too literally.
<big snip>
I appreciate the time you've spent on this and previous replies,
but my own time just now (as always, it seems) is very limited.
I'll continue to read messages on this list, but I won't be sending
many for the foreseeable future. This argument has been interesting,
though frustrating (as always, again). Thank you for your input! :-)
(And Wade, too.)
-- Robin Faichney=============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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