Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA22061 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:46:08 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31017459C1@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !? Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:43:50 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I'm pleased to have got what you were saying :-)
I'm not sure how far I'd go along with this view, mind you, but I see the
point you're making.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Kenneth Van Oost
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 10:28 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > I'm still not really sure what you mean when you identify a Lamarckian
> > element to American society, politics and thought. Could you elaborate
> a
> > little?
> >
> > Do you mean, for example, to take it at a crude level, that because
> modern
> > America is not the product of a lengthy development of an idigenous and
> > ethnically homogenous people, but instead a rapidly congealed group of
> > diverse peoples (the old melting pot idea) that the society is sustained
> via
> > memes?
>
> << Yes, yes that is more than an accurate discription of the fact !!
> Each seperate ethnical group, religious force or fundamentalistic movement
> passes on their own memes to their offspring or followers all under the
> notion
> of being part of American society. ( America has become in itself a
> beliefsystem, somehow a hook where people can cling onto...)
> The above process is IMHO Lamarckian, not only at the individual level of
> the American in the street but also at the level of the group, force of
> move-
> ment where that American belongs to.
>
> That notion makes up their sameness, their collectiviness is found in the
> notion
> that they think that they are all part of what America really stands for.
> It is at that level where Darwinian evolution starts, an analogy would be
> a
> binary starsystem where two seperate stars are playing tricks with
> eachother,
> but where their influence zone of gravity touches, well there is what
> America
> stands for.
>
> Violence is an already reinforced genetically thread_due to the fact that
> each
> group had to fight and do fight for their own beliefs, it has become
> somehow
> a ' general language ', because all the groups are so far apart from
> eachother that violence, dead and sarrow brings them together.
> Death, they say, brings people together and in America the notion, stop
> the
> violence is for that matter the term to talk to eachother.
>
> In a sense, symbols, yes are the forms by which those groups live, all
> what
> is
> left of their original ethnical group, religious force or fundamentalistic
> move-
> ment are the symbols_their relics of a better past. All has been lost
> under
> the notion of for what America stands for. Somehow all those groups are
> living memetically in the past, but in order to go ahead, to get
> evolution,
> all those groups want to live under the most important symbol to them all,
> the American flag !!
>
> PS, the problem now is that the American dream was a haust, people are
> beginning to realise that, the power of the flag is somewhat faded away.
> People feel betrayed and that is a major reason to go back to their own
> original group with all its consequences...
>
> Well put, Vincent. Thanks for that, it really gave me a boost !!
>
> Regards,
>
> Kenneth
>
> ( I am, because we are)
> > In other words, since the varied communities of America are diverse in
> terms
> > of key factors, such as ethnicity, religion, language etc. etc., is the
> > society only maintained via its memes, hence when those holding America
> > together are threatened (or perceived to be threatened by different
> groups)
> > the results are particularly violent because they are the only things
> > holding the society together? So, Christian funadmentalists campaign
> > vigoursly for banning evolutionary theory from schools, pro-lifers bomb
> > clinics where abortions can be obtained, militias carry guns and shoot
> at
> > the FBI (and vice versa), race-based crimes cause ratings to go through
> the
> > roof, and lead to riots etc. etc. etc. Is this kind of environment the
> > reason behind, to pick another superficial example, why
> defacing/burning
> > the American flag is a criminal act in the US? Symbols have become so
> > central to the maintenance of America that they need to be protected?
> >
> > Vincent
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Kenneth Van Oost
> > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 5:04 pm
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: Re: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !?
> > >
> > >
> > > Vincent you wrote,
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > Well, of course, the founders of America were all puritans, a
> particular
> > > > kind of Christian who weren't that popular in England, and more or
> less
> > > got
> > > > sent away. That puritan zeal runs deep through American society,
> but
> as
> > > > others have said, I'm not sure one could classify Americans in
> general
> > > as
> > > > Lamarkian.
> > >
> > > << No, I won 't call all Americans Lamarckian, but IMHO, as the
> political
> > > history of the land shows, that their thoughts are probably influenced
> by
> > > Lamarckian threads.
> > > That is, for example, the all round existing moral convictions of
> their
> > > doing,
> > > are, I suspect, in a sense, moulded in another shape than ours.
> > > That is, other brain connections are made_as in the above mentioned
> > > example,
> > > we use the memetic lineages of principle as they use the lineages of
> goal.
> > > There is a key difference in the way we use our brain...!?
> > > In that respect, the endlessly shaped experiences by both sides
> results
> in
> > > different particular responses to fit new circumstances.But, if the
> mind
> > > is/
> > > was already shaped by anti-Darwinian threads, well I don 't think much
> > > can be done that Darwinism can move up the latter !! >>
> > >
> > > > Anyway, a combination of environmental change, and existing specific
> > > beliefs
> > > > undoubtedly influenced the American mindset, but the problem is that
> > > America
> > > > as yet to stabilise in terms of immigration, with many waves of
> diverse
> > > > groups continuing to enter the US since the 17th century efforts of
> the
> > > > puritan colonists. As a result, I don't really think it's possible
> to
> > > > ascribe to the entire USA a particular mindset, after all if they
> were
> > > all
> > > > Lamarkian, or creationist, there would have been no desire for the
> > > Scopes
> > > > trial (I have a large photo, from a newspaper, of Clarence Darrow
> taken
> > > at
> > > > the trial on my wall).
> > >
> > > << Like I mentioned as above, I don 't think it either, but I do think
> > > that
> > > in the
> > > case of politics it is very possible that it did though !!
> > > And in this respect, if politics is highly influenced by Lamarckian
> > > thoughts, than
> > > it would be possible that the population is also, that due to the fact
> > > that
> > > those
> > > have to live by the rules set out by the political parties.
> > > Maby, we are not aware of the fact that Lamarckism influenced America
> in
> > > high notes because our minds are set to Darwinism !?
> > > Remerber, it is only for a few years now that Lamarckism is back on
> track
> > > and that is due to us, the memetisists ! After all, EJ Steele searched
> for
> > > nearly
> > > two decades for an answer to his questions.
> > > With the work we are doing here, it may be possible that we see one
> day
> > > through the clouds which are now blocking our view on America.
> > >
> > > By the way, the Scopes trial !? Is that, that famous trial of 1925/
> Monkey
> > > Trial !?
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > Kenneth
> > >
> > > ( I am, because we are)
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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