Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA25531 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:44:26 +0100 Message-ID: <000701bfe910$4f2f1f20$4e03bed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745903@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Cons and Facades/memetic engineering Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 21:10:41 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 12:39 PM
Subject: RE: Cons and Facades/memetic engineering
> Thanks for this.
>
> I think you're very right. What's interesting then is whether there is a
> particular point in time at which a community recognises these animal
> behaviours as inappropriate for that particular kind of community.
<< Is there a point !? I think there is, but what I am gonna say is of
course
pure speculative.
The main issue for man and memes was in that time, survival, pure and
simple.
So memes (and genes) directed towards survival scaled down bahaviour-
patterns like incest/ sodomie and cannibalism...not because they were wrong,
but they jeapardized the survival of man/ species and meme.
How !? Due to the fact, and that is of course the flaw in this statement,
that
early humans had to understand, and probably they did understand, the
consequences of those behaviourpatterns.
One of the major results of incest are ' bad ' children, the consequences
of
sodomie were ' some kind of children ' (if the female gets pregnant in the
first place), the consequences of cannibalism we all know.
So, due to the fact that early humans had the ' proove ' at first hand that
those patterns were ' bad ', it is easy to presume that they became inappro-
priate for those kind of communities. >>
If you like, is there a kind of social equivalent of the Adam and Eve story?
<< In Girards view, the beginning of culture starts with the murder of Kaïn.
See my post of Sunday 14 May about that. But a social equivalent of the
Adam and Eve story !? The story of Abel and Kaïn can support in some
way that notion, but a biblical stance for that kind of stuff is not my cop
of
tea. I have to think about that, though ! >>
< Snip >
> Just thinking about it, the notion of taboo is almost a conscious
> meme-antidote. If you don't want people to imitate certain behaviours,
then
> one way to minimize the liklihood of this happening is by restricting the
> extent to which people communicate (or represent through art etc.) that
> behaviour.
<< Don 't you think that comes close to what Wade T. Smith wrote, that
the whole issue is a ' lie ', just for the sake of certain ' good or bad '
beha-
viours !? >>
> Then, at the other end of the spectrum, you get the equivalent
> I suppose of a memetic bacteriophage, in things like Meagan's Law. Flood
> the communication environment with knowledge about who conducts the
unwanted
> behaviours to the point where they are unable to do it anymore.
<< You can state the same argument here, a ' lie ' !?
In my point of view, ' having no reaction left,( unable to do it anymore) is
still a reaction ' and a very dangerous one. I think I have already put it
forward that we with the memetic concept in hand can ' proove ' that
certain unwanted behaviours and conducts are due to the fact of neurological
patterns/ memes and ideas and those people having those behaviourpatterns
can 't help if they behave the way they do.
But that is of course another debate.>>
Regards,
Kenneth
(I am, because we are)
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