From: Keo Ormsby (chor02@xenomexico.org)
Date: Thu 04 Nov 2004 - 20:18:14 GMT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Henson" <hkhenson@rogers.com>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Absolutist memes
[snip]
> That's not at all my position.
>
> My point is that the increasing circulation of
xenophobic memes (in this
> particular example called "absolutist") during times
of "looming privation"
> or related ecologically based psychological stress on
a population is a
> mechanism to *induce* attacks, not one for survival
against attack.
>
I agree that xenophobic memes could pose a signifficant
effect over the the ability of a tribe (and its genes)
to thrive, but "absolutist" sounds a little far fetched
to have this effect.
[snip]
> >The point I want to make, is that this
interpretation does not say anything
> >about whether a population with absolutist memes
will have a better survival
> >rate than another with rationalistic memes, or vice
versa.
>
> According to modern evolutionary theory, it is the
*genes* rather than a
> population that get selected.
>
Yes, definetively. But it is thru the selective
pressures on the phenotype of the population carrying
the genes that they can thrive or not (with few
exceptions). If a population with a certain gene
thrives, then that gene thrives. If a gene doesn't
affect in any way the ability to reproduce of an
organism or its offspring, then there will be no
natural selection on it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dace" <edace@earthlink.net>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: Absolutist memes
[snip]
> Well, this is a very interesting point, but I can't
quite wrap my brain
> around the idea of fear memes. A meme is a kind of
idea. It can be a
> conceptual idea, mathematical idea, musical idea,
fashion idea, behavioral
> idea-- what have you, but it must be some form of
idea. Fear is far too
> primal to be a meme. So, while you might notice that
everyone is wearing
> safari jackets, and you'd like to wear one too, it
just doesn't work that
> way with fear. If you hear a gunshot and notice that
everyone around you is
> in a panic, you don't stop and think, "Gee, maybe I
should join the crowd
> and be in a panic as well-- otherwise no one will
like me or pay attention
> to me." Instead the panic takes hold regardless of
your thought processes.
>
> But memes can certainly exploit fear, as they can
exploit narcissism.
I stand corrected, I should have said "fear-inducing
memes". This raises the interesting question of how
memes are associated with certain emotions or feelings
(hate, fear, pleasure or even hunger, sickness). Are
there certain words or concepts that innately invoke
certain responses (such as talking about snakes
produces fear)? How do complex or abstract memes come
to evoke such biologically primal responses? I guess
this is the point where Psychology and Memetics would
intersect.
Keo.
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu 04 Nov 2004 - 20:30:56 GMT