Re: eyes in cave animals drifting away?

From: Keith Henson (hkhenson@rogers.com)
Date: Thu 19 Feb 2004 - 14:38:06 GMT

  • Next message: Chris Taylor: "Re: eyes in cave animals drifting away?"

    At 01:21 AM 19/02/04 -0500, you wrote:
    >In a couple recent posts Keith has used the example of cave animals
    >losing their eyes due to lack of light. In this post he tells the
    >adaptionist tale of this loss being related to metabolic costs (ie- eyes
    >too expensive to build so selected against):
    >
    >http://cfpm.org/~majordom/memetics/2000/16576.html
    >
    >Has he ruled out the possibility of genetic drift?

    Good point.

    >In an environment
    >that lacks light, the major selective pressure for maintaining eyes has
    >been negated, thus mutations of eye development related genes would be
    >selectively neutral. Populations of cave dwelling animals might be quite
    >small.

    That may be possible in some instances. In others, for insect sort of things that feed on bat droppings, the population may be rather large.

    >Mutations of eye genes might accumulate, due to not being removed
    >by selection. Eyes, as a structure, would deteriorate and the animals
    >become blind, without metabolic cost being a significant factor in the
    >process.

    I don't know the answer to this, but do know how you would gather evidence. There are a lot of different cave blind species including fish and a lot of different populations as well. Has the majority shift been in the direction of reduced metabolism or are there cases where the eyes are just non-functional while still running the same metabolic load? I.e., going blind vs the eyes shrinking to tiny dots.

    Eyes like other nerve tissue *are* expensive to operate. Additionally, they are exposed and wet, making them costly in terms of protecting from bacteria.

    >Futuyma's text says one possibility is that (p. 423) : "mutations that
    >cause degeneration of an unused character become fixed by genetic drift
    >because variations in the character are selectively neutral". Selection
    >is another and an hypothesis is explored which supports selection but it
    >is noted that in some instances genetic drift may play a role.
    >
    >Futuyma DJ. 1997. Evolutionary Biology. Sinauer Associates, Inc.
    >Sunderland, Massachusetts

    Relating this back to memetics, you would expect memetic drift where there was little or no cost associated with a meme. I was considering styles as an example, but that may not be drift. It is possible styles don't drift but are driven in a kind of chaotic movement where the next style is anything except the old one. I.e., driven to a cycle limited
    "newness." (Women's skirts can only range from the floor to . . . .
    ) Open to speculation as to what psychological trait selected in the Pleistocene could be manifesting today to drive clothing styles. Are changing clothing styles a western culture feature only? Are men's clothing styles more stable in different cultures?

    Keith Henson

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