From: Vincent Campbell (VCampbell@dmu.ac.uk)
Date: Thu 28 Aug 2003 - 11:32:28 GMT
Sorry that should be Marc Hauser's 'Wild Minds'.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Vincent Campbell
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:49 PM
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: Getting OT a bit...RE: A look at where consciousness
> lies in the brain
>
> Don't know enough about this from the empirical point of view to comment
> authoritatively, but isn't it the case that below a certain age children
> don't recognise themselves in a mirror- so one can deduce that the
> "correct"
> response to one's image indicates the extent of self-awareness.
>
> Beyond that, e.g. the nature of self-awareness that say a chimp has
> compared
> to a human, goes back to that Nagel thing about what it's like to be a
> bat-
> essentially and fundamentally we can't know.
>
> I'd recommend reading Marc Hauser's 'Animal Minds' which is all about
> animal
> intelligence, awareness etc. etc. (from one of the leading researchers in
> the field), for more on this.
>
> Of course for humans recognition of self is important because its
> corollate
> is recognition of other, and with that comes empathy and the ability to
> infer motives, desires in others etc. and change our behaviour
> accordingly.
>
> Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: Chris Taylor
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 11:03 AM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: Getting OT a bit...RE: A look at where consciousness
> > lies in the brain
> >
> > There's that experiment where the subject (chimp?) has a spot marked on
> > their head while unconscious, then when they return to the mirror they
> > use the image to go staight for the spot on their own head. Now you're
> > right, that is indistinguishable from, say, thinking that the mirror
> > image is more of a status monitor than a reflection of a self, just in
> > the style of a chimp rather than a dashboard iyswim, but I think the
> > issue is how easily an animal realises that it is at the very least
> > closely reflective (unavoidable pun) of itself - a functional model of
> > self would speed this to the point where it is almost qualitatively
> > different from, say, a dog or a teenager.
> >
> > It must be a fairly tenuous thing anyway, this 'belief' in mirrors,
> > because I (and a zillion fiction writers) can never quite shake the
> > feeling that it isn't me, and my world, at all, and at any moment it
> > could deviate (Alice thru the LG, that John Carpenter film Prince of
> > Darkness [inter about a million alia]).
> >
> > Cheers, Chris.
> >
> > Virginia Bowen wrote:
> >
> > > Question for the academics out there: Does the ability to recognize
> > > one's mirror image really show self-awareness, or only the ability to
> > > recognize that one is looking into a thing that reflects? As a
> > > layperson, it just seems to me that mirror-image recognition doesn't
> > > really show us anything about self-awareness, only about exposure or
> not
> > > to mirrors. I have personal anecdotes about animals that eventually
> > > realize that the image is not another animal and quit fighting with it
> > > after a time. Just curious about the academic stance on this.
> > >
> > > Virginia
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk] On
> Behalf
> > > Of Wade T. Smith
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 6:41 AM
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: Fwd: A look at where consciousness lies in the brain
> > >
> > >
> > > BOOK REVIEW
> > > A look at where consciousness lies in the brain
> > >
> > > By Laurence Schorsch, Globe Correspondent, 8/5/2003
> > >
> > > http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/217/science/
> > > A_look_at_where_consciousness_lies_in_the_brainP.shtml
> > >
> > > When you look at yourself in the mirror each morning, you may be
> > > surprised by how disheveled you look, but you're never surprised by a
>
> > > face you don't recognize as your own.
> > >
> > > Most animals, though, have no such self-recognition, and if presented
>
> > > with their image in a mirror, will usually view it as another animal.
>
> > > This ability to know our own reflection is called mirror-recognition,
>
> > > and it's the dominant theme of a new book, ''The Face in the Mirror,''
>
> > > by Julian Paul Keenan with Gordon G. Gallup Jr. and Dean Falk.
> > >
> > > In 1970, Gallup, then an assistant professor of psychology at Tulane
> > > University, published a seminal paper on self-recognition in primates,
>
> > > describing a simple test he devised to prove chimpanzees could
> > > recognize themselves in a mirror. Chimps previously exposed to mirrors
>
> > > were anesthetized, and an odorless mark was put on their brow. When
> the
> > >
> > > chimps were reintroduced to the mirror, they immediately noticed the
> > > change, often rubbing the marks with their hands. This elegant test
> > > clearly demonstrated that the animals knew the chimps in the mirrors
> > > were images of themselves.
> > >
> > > Gallup's mirror test immediately was tried on other primates. Monkeys
>
> > > failed, orangutans passed, and surprisingly, gorillas -- closest to
> > > humans after chimps -- usually failed. For humans, the question wasn't
>
> > > whether we could pass the test, but when? For most children,
> > > mirror-recognition occurs at around 18 months.
> > >
> > > Keenan, a neurologist and director of the Cognitive Neuroimaging
> > > Laboratory at Montclair State University in New Jersey, contends that
>
> > > mirror recognition is a key to understanding consciousness. Once
> > > animals are able to recognize themselves, they can begin to view their
>
> > > world in a different way. ''If self-awareness is intimately tied to
> > > understanding one's own thoughts,'' he writes, ''then, we might
> assume,
> > >
> > > self-awareness may give rise to the ability to reflect on the thoughts
>
> > > of others.''
> > >
> > > The ability to attribute thought to others is essential to empathy, as
>
> > > well as the ability to feel resentment, pride, envy, embarrassment,
> > > guilt, and to lie and deceive. Though this may sound like a list of
> > > deadly sins, it's also the list of skills essential for interacting
> > > intelligently with others, or within a group or culture.
> > >
> > > Much of the book is taken up with the search of where consciousness
> > > lies in the brain, and detailed descriptions of dozens of experiments
>
> > > are given. But, as Keenan writes, ''With all the available evidence,
> > > the precise location of the self in the brain remains elusive. In
> > > almost all studies on self-awareness, the right hemisphere is
> > > implicated.'' Unfortunately, pages and pages of repetitive,
> > > inconclusive experiments make dreary, frustrating reading.
> > >
> > > The idea that our identity as a unique and complex individual may
> > > simply reside in a chunk of brain tissue is a staggering thought, but
>
> > > Keenan doesn't spend too much time examining the implications of this
>
> > > concept. He tries to liven things up in the manner of Oliver Sacks
> with
> > >
> > > bizarre but enlightening stories of patients with brain disorders.
> > > Sadly, these are mostly short and unengaging, and are usually
> > > introduced to show that consciousness is located in the right
> > > hemisphere.
> > >
> > > If you're interested in neurology, and don't mind reading what is
> often
> > >
> > > no more than a digest of clinical and animal studies, you'll no doubt
>
> > > find the book enjoyable. There's plenty of background on brain anatomy
>
> > > and imaging techniques, but if you're looking for the big picture, and
>
> > > want a basic primer on human consciousness, you'll want to take your
> > > brain elsewhere.
> > >
> > > The Face in the Mirror: The Search for the Origins of Consciousness By
> > > Julian Paul Keenan with Gordon G. Gallup Jr. and Dean Falk Ecco, 278
> > > pages; $24.95
> > >
> > > This story ran on page D2 of the Boston Globe on 8/5/2003. CCopyright
> > > 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.
> > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal
> > > of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For
> > > information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> >
> > --
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Chris Taylor (chris@bioinf.man.ac.uk)
> > http://pedro.man.ac.uk/ ªpeopleªchris
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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