From: Vincent Campbell (VCampbell@dmu.ac.uk)
Date: Tue 26 Aug 2003 - 12:49:43 GMT
Don't know enough about this from the empirical point of view to comment
authoritatively, but isn't it the case that below a certain age children
don't recognise themselves in a mirror- so one can deduce that the "correct"
response to one's image indicates the extent of self-awareness.
Beyond that, e.g. the nature of self-awareness that say a chimp has compared
to a human, goes back to that Nagel thing about what it's like to be a bat-
essentially and fundamentally we can't know.
I'd recommend reading Marc Hauser's 'Animal Minds' which is all about animal
intelligence, awareness etc. etc. (from one of the leading researchers in
the field), for more on this.
Of course for humans recognition of self is important because its corollate
is recognition of other, and with that comes empathy and the ability to
infer motives, desires in others etc. and change our behaviour accordingly.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Chris Taylor
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 11:03 AM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Getting OT a bit...RE: A look at where consciousness
> lies in the brain
>
> There's that experiment where the subject (chimp?) has a spot marked on
> their head while unconscious, then when they return to the mirror they
> use the image to go staight for the spot on their own head. Now you're
> right, that is indistinguishable from, say, thinking that the mirror
> image is more of a status monitor than a reflection of a self, just in
> the style of a chimp rather than a dashboard iyswim, but I think the
> issue is how easily an animal realises that it is at the very least
> closely reflective (unavoidable pun) of itself - a functional model of
> self would speed this to the point where it is almost qualitatively
> different from, say, a dog or a teenager.
>
> It must be a fairly tenuous thing anyway, this 'belief' in mirrors,
> because I (and a zillion fiction writers) can never quite shake the
> feeling that it isn't me, and my world, at all, and at any moment it
> could deviate (Alice thru the LG, that John Carpenter film Prince of
> Darkness [inter about a million alia]).
>
> Cheers, Chris.
>
> Virginia Bowen wrote:
>
> > Question for the academics out there: Does the ability to recognize
> > one's mirror image really show self-awareness, or only the ability to
> > recognize that one is looking into a thing that reflects? As a
> > layperson, it just seems to me that mirror-image recognition doesn't
> > really show us anything about self-awareness, only about exposure or not
> > to mirrors. I have personal anecdotes about animals that eventually
> > realize that the image is not another animal and quit fighting with it
> > after a time. Just curious about the academic stance on this.
> >
> > Virginia
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk] On Behalf
> > Of Wade T. Smith
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 6:41 AM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Fwd: A look at where consciousness lies in the brain
> >
> >
> > BOOK REVIEW
> > A look at where consciousness lies in the brain
> >
> > By Laurence Schorsch, Globe Correspondent, 8/5/2003
> >
> > http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/217/science/
> > A_look_at_where_consciousness_lies_in_the_brainP.shtml
> >
> > When you look at yourself in the mirror each morning, you may be
> > surprised by how disheveled you look, but you're never surprised by a
> > face you don't recognize as your own.
> >
> > Most animals, though, have no such self-recognition, and if presented
> > with their image in a mirror, will usually view it as another animal.
> > This ability to know our own reflection is called mirror-recognition,
> > and it's the dominant theme of a new book, ''The Face in the Mirror,''
> > by Julian Paul Keenan with Gordon G. Gallup Jr. and Dean Falk.
> >
> > In 1970, Gallup, then an assistant professor of psychology at Tulane
> > University, published a seminal paper on self-recognition in primates,
> > describing a simple test he devised to prove chimpanzees could
> > recognize themselves in a mirror. Chimps previously exposed to mirrors
> > were anesthetized, and an odorless mark was put on their brow. When the
> >
> > chimps were reintroduced to the mirror, they immediately noticed the
> > change, often rubbing the marks with their hands. This elegant test
> > clearly demonstrated that the animals knew the chimps in the mirrors
> > were images of themselves.
> >
> > Gallup's mirror test immediately was tried on other primates. Monkeys
> > failed, orangutans passed, and surprisingly, gorillas -- closest to
> > humans after chimps -- usually failed. For humans, the question wasn't
> > whether we could pass the test, but when? For most children,
> > mirror-recognition occurs at around 18 months.
> >
> > Keenan, a neurologist and director of the Cognitive Neuroimaging
> > Laboratory at Montclair State University in New Jersey, contends that
> > mirror recognition is a key to understanding consciousness. Once
> > animals are able to recognize themselves, they can begin to view their
> > world in a different way. ''If self-awareness is intimately tied to
> > understanding one's own thoughts,'' he writes, ''then, we might assume,
> >
> > self-awareness may give rise to the ability to reflect on the thoughts
> > of others.''
> >
> > The ability to attribute thought to others is essential to empathy, as
> > well as the ability to feel resentment, pride, envy, embarrassment,
> > guilt, and to lie and deceive. Though this may sound like a list of
> > deadly sins, it's also the list of skills essential for interacting
> > intelligently with others, or within a group or culture.
> >
> > Much of the book is taken up with the search of where consciousness
> > lies in the brain, and detailed descriptions of dozens of experiments
> > are given. But, as Keenan writes, ''With all the available evidence,
> > the precise location of the self in the brain remains elusive. In
> > almost all studies on self-awareness, the right hemisphere is
> > implicated.'' Unfortunately, pages and pages of repetitive,
> > inconclusive experiments make dreary, frustrating reading.
> >
> > The idea that our identity as a unique and complex individual may
> > simply reside in a chunk of brain tissue is a staggering thought, but
> > Keenan doesn't spend too much time examining the implications of this
> > concept. He tries to liven things up in the manner of Oliver Sacks with
> >
> > bizarre but enlightening stories of patients with brain disorders.
> > Sadly, these are mostly short and unengaging, and are usually
> > introduced to show that consciousness is located in the right
> > hemisphere.
> >
> > If you're interested in neurology, and don't mind reading what is often
> >
> > no more than a digest of clinical and animal studies, you'll no doubt
> > find the book enjoyable. There's plenty of background on brain anatomy
> > and imaging techniques, but if you're looking for the big picture, and
> > want a basic primer on human consciousness, you'll want to take your
> > brain elsewhere.
> >
> > The Face in the Mirror: The Search for the Origins of Consciousness By
> > Julian Paul Keenan with Gordon G. Gallup Jr. and Dean Falk Ecco, 278
> > pages; $24.95
> >
> > This story ran on page D2 of the Boston Globe on 8/5/2003. CCopyright
> > 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal
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> > information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Chris Taylor (chris@bioinf.man.ac.uk)
> http://pedro.man.ac.uk/ »people»chris
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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