RE: Origin of memes

From: Richard Brodie (richard@brodietech.com)
Date: Wed 18 Jun 2003 - 21:45:35 GMT

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    Sorry...your thought process is along the lines he writes about in this book.

    Richard Brodie www.memecentral.com

    -----Original Message----- From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Chris Taylor Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 2:31 PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Origin of memes

    And he said something other than what I suggested or what?

    Richard Brodie wrote:
    > Plotkin's "Darwin Machine" addresses this question.
    >
    > Richard Brodie
    > www.memecentral.com
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
    > Of Chris Taylor
    > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:37 AM
    > To: memetics
    > Subject: Origin of memes
    >
    >
    > Hi. I'm a much more extreme meme-ist than most here I think, because
    > most (I would surmise) see memes as a high order phenomenon, whereas I
    > prefer to think of memes (maybe I need a better word) as fundamental to
    > all but our basest animal stuff (face recognition, fear, the stuff you
    > can't lie about because it is part of the hard-wired honesty required
    > for social living). In essence I see (metaphorically speaking) atomic
    > level patterns, which are built into higher order structures (memes of
    > varying levels of complexity, up to memeplexes). These structures vary
    > wildly between people depending on the structuring of the meme(plexe)s
    > within them (what is a 'black box', and what has internal structure
    > etc., the general approach to structure [range, depth, branching] and so
    > on), various aspects will vary widely.
    >
    > This leads me to (inter alia) two conclusions:
    > 1) There are memes in our minds (many of which will be too 'small' to
    > ever be performed as such)
    > 2) The type and degree of structuring of these memes varies
    >
    > So performances (i.e. phenotypic-level copying) will vary, and the memes
    > in our minds will also differ (in all cases) to some degree because we
    > try to knock up things that replicate a phenotype, with no real idea of
    > (or hope of replicating) internal structure.
    >
    > Now the reason I mention this is to ask the question how did memes come
    > into existence - how did we move from programmed behaviour to acquired?
    >
    > I wonder if predator's search images provide us with a selected-for
    > starting point, or whether we need to go lower - note that I don't
    > consider operant conditioning to produce memes. The reason I picked
    > search images is that organisms tend to be programmed to spot movement,
    > but if your prey isn't moving, how can you pick them out from the
    > environment? So if you factor in the fact that we are 'looking' at a
    > sensory encoding of the world (enhanced edges, movement detection etc.)
    > then if the search image is applied, what appears to be just more
    > pattern will actually stand out from its background in the mind of (say)
    > a bird, because the search image is already separate from the background
    > in the internal representation. Big advantage in response to freezing +
    > crypsis by prey, therefore selectable. I'm not sure that's entirely
    > clear but I'd like someone to offer an opinion because there seems to be
    > little discussion about how we _got_ to a memetic world.
    >
    > Cheers, Chris.
    >
    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    > Chris Taylor (chris@bioinf.man.ac.uk)
    > http://pedro.man.ac.uk/ »people»chris
    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    >
    >
    >
    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    >
    >
    >
    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    > 

    --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Chris Taylor (chris@bioinf.man.ac.uk)
  http://pedro.man.ac.uk/ »people»chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit

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