From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Tue 17 Jun 2003 - 19:47:42 GMT
From: "Van oost Kenneth"
<kennethvanoost@belgacom.net>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: birthdays
Date sent: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:21:48 +0200
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <joedees@bellsouth.net>
> June 12,
> > Sure, we learn through experience, but this is not to deny the
> > internal, cognitive character of the learning and the knowing; BOTH
> > the between and the within are necessary and essential, and Wade's
> > between-only half-model simply cannot pass the second half of
> > Occam's Razor (explaining all the present phenomena, such as our
> > ability to encode the selfsame meme in vastly differing
> > performances).
>
> Joe, Wade,
>
> Yes, but in Wade' s scheme both the internal and the external are of
> importance_ it is just that the brain and its functions is part of
> what you stipulate as the ' external '. We don 't deny the internal
> funcional process of the brain/ mind_ we just don 't see the process (
> of what is going on in there) as a particular condition of memes. The
> info of where with the brain has to function, besides its own natural
> specifics, must be induced upon it !
>
> It is up to the cultural/ social venue within which you were born that
> will induce the selfsame meme upon you_ your birthday is been '
> remerbered ' by that one card, that one special gift, that day at the
> races, etc..each time you look at it, play with it, or go back to the
> stables all of these are ' reasons ' by which you will remerber your
> birthday.
>
> There are 1000 and 1000 such reasons, constantly inducing their
> info within your culture, all the time, day and night...it is the con-
> tinuance of the inducement that makes that you ' remerber ' all the
> time yours, can remerber your birthday...at will...but that ain 't
> true...the constant inducement of performances, expected to happen (
> ways of remerbering birthdays) makes up the conti- nuance of
> remerbering...there ain 't one moment in the time/ space of the
> cultural venue that a way by which you will remerber your birthday ain
> 't performed. Of some you aren 't aware, that gift giving to the
> neighbours son is not your way to remerber yours, but that Playmobil-
> kit where that boy across the street is playing with right now
> is...and you will ' remerber ' your birthday...at will !? Probably !?
>
> It is in a way, not our ability to encode the selfsame meme
> in vastly differing performances...it is the cultural venue
> that does the work...we just ' recognize ' the performance
> which fits best with the specific venue within which I was
> born...with its own specific parameters, mathematics and
> logic. What you will recognize I do not and vice versa.
> What you will observe I can not due to the difference of
> cultural/ social venue.
>
> My main objection, what a word...with Wade's scheme
> so far, is the fact of solipsism...due to our uniqueness,
> as well genetic and as well memetic, I am still in hazzard
> with the individualistic- bit.
>
> I won 't be backsliding Wade, that 's for sure, but I keep
> on wondering about the effects of the cultural venue upon
> the individual...no matter how far you turn the clock back,
> ' we ' observe as individuals each performance, each artifact
> differently, it may be close, but not exact, it is not the same,
> not even self- same as you did claim, but what we in the end
> observe is ours !
> The mind is one of the agents, yes...but the mind has its own
> uniqueness over and over again, no perception of any per-
> formance if the self- same in any observing mind...so, do
> we talk here about a " solipsistic " aspect or not.....!?
> I am puzzled by this....
>
> Regards to you both though,
>
> Kenneth
>
By redefining the mind as part of the external, rather than the internal,
environment (the external being the only environment he seems to
recognize), Wade loses all distinctiveness from cognitive memetics
which he claims for his 'model', and only adds an unnecessary
confusion by eliminating a very real distinction.
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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