From: Richard Brodie (richard@brodietech.com)
Date: Mon 16 Jun 2003 - 23:10:16 GMT
Wade wrote:
<<I suppose I
could say I'd like you to supply what you mean by _your_ model, which,
hmm, does it have a name?>>
Its name is "memetics." I've written a 250-page book on it. You could also
read Daniel Dennett's excellent book "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" if you wish
to understand memetics.
The core of the model is that the future of a culture is created by the
differential selection of cultural replicators. Cultural replicators include
memes, artifacts, and cultural organisms such as religions, chain letters,
and governments. Numerous factors influence this differential selection,
most importantly the nature of the human mind (psychology). People's
behavior is caused by the interaction of their nature, the information in
their minds, and external stimulus. It is through this behavior that
cultural replicators replicate.
<< I've been calling it the memeinthemind model,
but, maybe that is not clear enough. I thought 'performance model of
cultural evolution' was damn clear- this is a model that demands
performance in order for culture to evolve. Pretty concise, but, what
do I know? Names are important, culturally.... ;-)>>
Any possible model of cultural evolution would of course cover behavior. How
could it not?
<<How does a memeinthemind manage to make culture evolve?>>
A successful meme in a mind influences behavior, which causes the meme to be
replicated in another mind. For example, if I am familiar with baseball, I
may round up some folks to play a game, buy a ticket for a professional
game, or watch many games on TV, increasing the ratings of the program. In
each case I have contributed to the spread of the baseball meme by
increasing the probability that more minds will become familiar with
baseball. Culture is comprised of memes and artifacts. Replication of the
baseball meme increases the number of both; hence, culture evolves in the
direction of more baseball if the baseball meme wins the competition for
what I act on and talk about.
<< What proof do
you have that any meme in any mind is the same meme in another's mind? >>
I think we both know the Capital of Massachusetts beyond any doubt.
<<How is this eradication of physical laws explained? I still have no
idea what you mean by 'memeinthemind model'.>>
I've never talked about either eradication of physical laws or
'memeinthemind model.' You seem to be having an argument with yourself.
<<The performance model is a model of cultural evolution that posits
cultural evolution can only happen with three players-
1. A performer
2. An observer
3. A place wherein 1 and 2 are together
- and can only happen during the performance that is the product of the
interaction of all three. >>
Well, so far you've described the entire human world except for people alone
in their rooms. So no cultural evolution took place when Shakespeare was
alone in his study writing "As You Like It" or Mohammad was writing the
Koran.
<<The 'meme' of the performance model is that
one particular performance itself, and its lifespan is the duration of
the performance, and no further.>>
Since the word "meme", even if the broadest sense, denotes a cultural
replicator, you may as well stop right there. Since you state that each
performance is unique, your meme is not a replicator and therefore not a
meme.
<<(The lifespan of a member of a species, after all, is not the lifespan
of the species itself. A meme is not the species, it is a member of the
species. In the case of cultural evolution, each venue may contain the
required environment for several species- baseball, football, soccer,
e.g.- but each game is a different, unique member of its species, with
little or no cross-fertilization, and each game has a limited duration,
but they are all over when they are over. It is illogical in the
performance model to posit a meme of unlimited duration, or even one
continuing from place to place.)>>
Whatever you intended to convey by that was lost on me entirely.
<<Both the observer and the performer are self-conscious, social beings
with communicative and imitative skills, in our case, homo sapiens
sapiens.>>
So no cultural evolution can take place when I am performing for only a
camera, or when I am watching a movie alone?
<<The place wherein they communicate is called the 'venue' in this model.
Examples of venues are schools, focus groups, baseball fields, offices,
town squares, traffic intersections- in short, anything constructed by
homo sapiens sapiens in the course of its civilization wherein a
performer may be observed. This includes the specific language that
each isolated or separate culture develops, and all the processes of
communication which are shared and understood. Each performer and
observer within a venue is expected to interact with its processes,
but, this is not required of the model. There may be strangers in any
venue, and they could be part of the performance as well.>>
Giving this a best-intentions read, I'm guessing your point is that the
presence of artifacts (as well as natural landscape I suppose) and the
shared language of the people involved influences both the performance and
the observation. This concurs with the memetic model.
<<The performance itself is constrained by the parameters in place within
the venue- language, location, acoustics, sightlines, skill level,
observer interest- this list is boundless, but it is determined by the
performance environment. The performance is also constrained and/or
effected by aleatory and natural forces- wind, rain, mud, fog, ambient
noise, sickness- and this list is also boundless. Any and all
influences upon the performer may lead the resulting performance to
differ, and any one or all of the influences upon the observer-
headache, hunger, pain, apathy, interest, economic gain- may also lead
the resulting observation to differ- and when and if the observer in
turn performs, and thus continues the expectation of the venue, all
these influences come into play again. >>
Looks like we're still on the same page here.
<<High skill levels of all
participants will result in high levels of meaning transference, but
these conditions are not easy to implement and not required, although
they are desired, especially within a stable venue. It is the duty of
the venue to ensure at least a level of meaning transference that will
result in a performance at time1 to be similar enough at time2 to be
called by the same cultural marker. (Thus, I see As You Like It at the
Publick Theatre in the park, and then see As You Like It at the
Huntington downtown, and I feel Shakespeare had a hand in both of
them.)>>
I'm not sure how a venue, which you've described as pretty much the entire
universe available to the participants, can have a "duty." You are using the
term "meaning transference", by which I can't think what you mean other than
mental memes, which you deny. You introduce a new term, "cultural marker." I
think you mean a name, which is also a mental meme.
<< Each similar meme is a product of a venue designed and
maintained to produce similar memes and it is venues that continue, not
memes, in this model. This is a striking difference between the two
models we are discussing, and I don't see why you can't grasp this
difference.>>
It is a striking difference. Let's see which model is more useful. To test
your model, pick any venue and I'll pick two sets of a dozen people, one of
which has memorized "As You Like It" and one of which hasn't. An impartial
observer will decide if the two performances can be called by the same
"cultural marker." Next, to test my model, I'll pick a set of a dozen people
and you pick any two venues. We'll ask an impartial observer the same
question. Do we need to perform the experiments?
<<Just as each species in genetic evolution is a venue designed and
maintained to produce similar members of the species. Genetic change is
a process of sexual performance, but, there are also influences from
the environment- temperature, food,>>
Not sure where this is going.
<<(I believe that the mental model does _not_ demand all three
participants for cultural evolution. I could be wrong. I also don't
think it really posits the effects upon culture or the changes due to
aleatory or incidental effects upon the performance itself, (and thus
the presentation of the ideational component of the behavior), but,
perhaps it does. I just haven't ever seen such things mentioned, and,
nowhere in any discussion of the mental model have I ever seen any
discussion of performance theory, all of which leads me to think the
mental model is denying the effects of the venue for some cryptic
quality of communication which happens outside the realm of physical
transmission, where memes locate using warp drive from brain to brain,
and everyone understands with remarkable clarity what everyone else is
saying and doing, with no possibility of miscommunication, because,
after all, it is the selfsame meme that is being transmitted.>>
This has been your favorite straw man and I'm glad to see you admit you are
wrong. Of course memetics requires behavior and interaction among people. Of
course meme transmission is a probabilistic process. Of course memes are
transmitted through behavior, not telepathy. You'll find a discussion of
miscommunication early on in my book: look up "telephone" in the index.
<< This
whole model approaches ridiculousness once the real world intrudes, so,
I've attempted to include at least a brief input from the real world,
the world wherein performances are sloppy, ill-timed, irrelevant,
misunderstood, misbegotten, late and early, stumbling, and uncertain,
as well as being intuitive, intelligent, meaningful, careful, skilled,
and cogent. The performance model is also ready and willing to tackle
artistic performance, and, again, I've seen little or no discussion of
art in the memeinthemind model's descriptions and examples, and,
indeed, I still haven't seen any unequivocal examples of a
memeinthemind. Even you, one of the inventors of the popular version of
memetics, dance around meanings and descriptions and explanations about
what it is, where it is, what one can do with it, and what it actually
does. The performance model makes no such equivocations- its meme is
quantifiable and immediate.)>>
I don't dance around anything. I've defined meme many times for you. Your
performance meme is not a replicator and with all this voluminous typing you
still haven't said how culture evolves under your so-called model.
<<25 words or less- The performance model of cultural evolution- venue,
performer, observer. Perform, observe, repeat. But perform first. Sex.
No chicken without the egg.>>
You contradict yourself. If each performance is unique, there is no repeat.
Richard Brodie
www.memecentral.com
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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