From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Sun 15 Jun 2003 - 20:45:38 GMT
From: "Dace" <edace@earthlink.net>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Joe's anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic attacks
Date sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 12:49:33 -0700
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
> >
> > This is addressed to the host of this list:
> >
> > Are Joe Dees and others not enjoined from posting anti-Islamic
> > diatribes from this list, and was Joe not suspended already once
> > from this list for doing so?
> >
> > Will you enforce your rule, or are we again, on this list, to be
> > subjected to this nonsense?
>
> Lawry,
>
> Joe's nonsense may be offensive, but it does prove a point I was
> making.
>
> Here's what I wrote:
>
> > The principled anti-Isreali stance is a result of human
> > intelligence, not memetic struggle. The unprincipled anti-Israeli
> > stance results from the success of the anti-Jew meme. Another
> > unprincipled stance, which is pro-Isreali, depends on the success of
> > the meme that equates all criticism of Israel with "anti-Semitism"
> > (the irony being that Arabs are themselves Semitic).
>
> Here's Joe's comment on my criticism of Israeli persecution of
> Palestinians:
>
> > I simply refuse to allow Dace's blatant antijewish
> > hate-propagandizing to go unanswered.
>
> Except for the substition of "anti-Semitic" with the more accurate
> term, "antijewish," Joe illustrated my point perfectly. He responded
> to my criticism of Israeli state policy by accusing me of bigotry.
>
When Dace heads a post 'Naxion", one can draw no other conclusion
than that it is antipathy-inspired. He would like to draw the parallel
between abused children growing up to be abusers themselves, and an
abused Jewry adopting the mindset of their persecuters, but it simply
doesn't wash. The mindset that Jews adopted instead was that they
would never again be passive victims of antijewish persecution and
genocide, from Nazis, Islamofascists, or anyone else, but would fight
back against it henceforth. After all, they saw what passive
acquiescence got them; six million mass murdered.
>
> His thinking on this issue is warped by memetic interference. The
> same is true, as I pointed out, of people infected by the antijewish
> meme. Joe's long post containing interviews between Arabs-- many
> (though not all) of whom exhibit antijewish hatred-- nicely
> illustrates this point. The intractability of the Israel debate is
> due in large part on the fact that both sides are inflexibly memified.
> However, both sides are also capable of overcoming their prejudice.
>
The Hamas, Hizbullah, Tanzim, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyr's
brigade attacks that ensue every time peace is threatened bountifully
indicates who is opposed to a peaceful two-state solution. Israel would
gladly accept such a solution, including dismantling Jewish settlements
in the West Bank and Gaza, if it would guarantee the security of their
citizens, and has stated so on numerous occasions; the aforementioned
groups have openly stated that they will NEVER accept an agreement
that includes an existent Israel. What is interesting is why Israelis are
willing to accept Palestinians living in Israel, but Palestinians are
unwilling to accept Israelis living in the West bank and Gaza. I chalk it
up to religious intolerance and bigotry.
>
> > From: joedees@bellsouth.net
> > Subject: Re: Joe's anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic attacks
> >
> > From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
> >
> > > This is addressed to the host of this list:
> > >
> > > Are Joe Dees and others not enjoined from posting anti-Islamic
> > > diatribes from this list, and was Joe not suspended already once
> > > from this list for doing so?
> > >
> > > Will you enforce your rule, or are we again, on this list, to be
> > > subjected to this nonsense?
> > >
> > I simply could not, in all good conscience, allow Dace's gratuitous
> > and unsolicited antijewish hate-propaganda diatribes to go
> > unanswered onlist. Of course, Lawry would NEVER complain about the
> > original rabidly Jew-hating screeds that provoked my responses, now
> > WOULD he?
>
> The reason Lawry didn't complain about my post was that it utilized
> the Israel-Palestine crisis as an example of the way virulent memes
> warp our thinking. I made sure to demonstrate that this applies on
> *both* sides of the issue under discussion. Then you came back with a
> couple more posts about those evil Arabs, as usual totally devoid of
> memetic analysis.
>
Actually, I allowed the antijewish hatred to be owned by the very mouths
of the horses that spewed it, and it was clear that those vicious and
virulent memes were being intentionally and purposefully taught by
parents to their children and bound up with their religion.
>
> > > > > What you're missing is the human dimension. For example,
> > > > > plenty of people have recognized that the state policies of
> > > > > Israel toward its Palestinian minority are criminal. To be
> > > > > anti-Israel, in this
> limited
> > > > > sense, results from subjecting beliefs to our innate capacity
> > > > > for reason. But some people criticize Israel, not out of
> > > > > reason, but
> out
> > > > > of a racist hatred of Jews. These are people who equate all
> > > > > Jews
> with
> > > > > Israel, though many Jews, even Israeli citizens, are appalled
> > > > > at the brutality of their government and their fellow
> > > > > citizens.
> > > >
> > > > The bias is not on the basis of race so much as religion; all
> > > > members
> of
> > > > non-Islamic religions are to be converted, enslaved (dhimmitude)
> > > > or killed. This is the stance that medieval Christians also
> > > > took, but
> the
> > > > Enlightenment, which the Islamists have either rejected or never
> > > > experienced, grew them out of it.
> > >
> > >Unlike Christians, Muslims always accepted and revered Jews and
> > >lived at peace with them.
> > >
> > > > As to who is and is not a criminal in the Israeli-Palestinian
> conflict, I
> > > > wish to quote James Lileks for you:
> > > >
> > > > I havenTt written much about the oRoadmap to PeaceĀ for the
> > > > same
> > >
> > > > reason I wouldnTt write much about attempts to crossbreed a
> > > > llama with a vacuum cleaner: I donTt think itTs going to work. I
> > > > never
> thought
> > > > it would work. The only question is how many dead Israelis it
> > > > will
> take
> > > > before the point is made, for the 3,234th time.
> > > > The top-of-the-hour radio news played today's news just as youTd
> > > > expect - everything shoved through the tit-for-tat template.
> > > > Israel attempts to take out a terror leader; Hamas orespondsĀ
> > > > with a
> > >
> > > > bombing. As if theyTre equal. As if targeting the car that
> > > > ferries
> around
> > > > some murderous SOB is the same as sending a blissed-out teenager
> > > > to blow nails and screws through the flesh of afternoon
> > > > commuters so he can bury himself in the heaving bosom of the
> > > > heavenly whorehouse. Cycle of violence, don't you know.
> > > >
> > > > They donTt have helicopters, we're told, so they use suicide
> > > > bombers. If they had helicopters, they would have strafed the
> > > > bus and everyone waiting at the corner. Give them a nation where
> > > > Hamas runs unchecked, and theyTll have helicopters. They won't
> > > > be Apaches. The bill of sale will be calculated in Euros and the
> > > > manual written in French. By then the excuse for the terror
> > > > won't be oppression; it'll
> be
> > > > "the legacy of oppression." Sometimes I swear the mainstream
> > > > media won't take a look at the Palestinian's horrid death-cult
> > > > subculture
> until
> > > > we learn that a suicide bomber played "Doom" at an Internet cafe
> > > > for five minutes. And then they'll blame Intel.
> > >
> > >This guy is letting his memes do his thinking for him. Both sides
> > >in
> this
> > >conflict are committing terrible acts of violence against each
> > >other. At first glance, it would seem that both sides are equally
> > >guilty. But when you cancel out the violence of each side, what's
> > >left is asymmetrical oppression. Israel is oppressing Palestine,
> > >while Palestine is not oppressing Israel. Israel has all the
> > >power, while Palestine has none. Israel illegally occupies
> > >Palestinian land, while Palestine occupies no Israeli land. Israel
> > >restricts water to Palestinians, preventing
> economic
> > >development, restricts Palestinian movement with numerous check
> > >points (which has effectively shut down all higher education),
> > >prevents Palestinians from using highways that criss-cross their
> > >territory,
> bulldozes
> > >their houses, pulls up their crops and fruit trees, and exploits
> > >them for low-end labor. The relationship is much like that of
> > >rapist to raped.
> To
> > >claim that Israel is somehow the victim in all this is much like
> > >claiming the rapist is the victim simply because, in the course of
> > >the attack, the victim managed to bite his ear. Clearly, we're
> > >dealing with a highly successful, pathological meme.
> > >
> > >We may trace the genealogy of this meme to Adolf Hitler and
> > >Naziism. The insane persecution of the Jews left them with an
> > >enduring sense of victimization. Even now, as they victimize
> > >Palestinians, they narcissistically view themselves as morally
> > >pure, while their enemies are pure evil. The narcissism generated
> > >through oppression has remained in place, even as they've become
> > >cruel oppressor. The Zion meme is a
> reverse
> > >image of the Nazi meme. It's the same except that Jew is
> > >victimizer
> instead
> > >of victim. One might say the Zion meme to the Nazi meme is what
> > >the vertebrate body-plan is to the insect body-plan-- a simple
> > >inversion.
> They
> > >may look strikingly different, but below the surface Nazi and
> > >Zionist
> bear
> > >the same colors, which they elaborate on according to their
> > >cultural
> norms.
> > >
> > >Just as Nazis projected their own criminality onto Jews, so
> > >Zionists
> project
> > >their criminality onto their victims. The face of Palestine
> > >presented in the US media is really just a mirror image of the true
> > >face of Israel.
> The
> > >Jews made an epochal mistake when they abandoned their Semitic
> > >brothers
> and
> > >trusted the very ones who had persecuted them. While Jews lived in
> > >peace with Arabs for centuries from Iraq to Iberia, Europeans
> > >bullied them and ultimately traumatized them. Yet the Jews left
> > >their ancient homes in
> the
> > >Arab world to live in a nation established for them by these same
> European
> > >powers. What would Saadiah Gaon, tenth century Exilarch (secular
> > >head of Mesopotamian Jewry), have made of Israel's support for the
> > >bombing of Baghdad, Gaon's beloved home of many years? He would
> > >have figured the
> Jews
> > >had lost their minds, and he would have been absolutely right.
> > >Zionist
> Jews
> > >have lost their power of reason to an insidious, malignant meme.
> > >
> > >Ted
>
> > Just make sure it's enforced on Ted Dace, and I will not bring it
> > up. After all, he initiated the discussion with his antiJewish
> > diatribe.
>
> There was no antijewish diatribe, rather an analysis of Israel's
> criminal persecution of Palestinians. Instead of responding to it
> rationally, you proved my point that Israel-defenders tend to
> thoughtlessly equate criticism of Israel with antijewish prejudice.
> That it's a culturally-shared, knee-jerk response indicates a memetic
> basis.
>
Dace has yet to answer my point about the real genocidals being the
Palestinian homicide bombers, who attempt to kill as many Jews as
possible, men, women, children and the elderly alike, and are taught
that this action is a highway to houri-populated paradise, whereas the
civilian Palestinian deaths are unintentional collateral damage of Israeli
targeting of Palestinian terrorists and their murderous infrastructure.
The percentage of Israelis killed who are civiliand far outstrips the
percentage of Palestinians killed who are. But then again, Palestinian
terrorists do not recognize any such entity as an Israeli civilian,
considering them all to be pigs and dogs deseving of death for the glory
of their perverted view of Allah. Dace refuses to address the ubiquity,
depth and intensity of that bigotry and the vicious murder that it spawns,
perferring to characterize the Israeli self-protective, perventive and
defensive actions in response as criminal, without so much as a glance
at the terrrorist hatred-fueled atrocities to which they are a response.
Such facts are memetically filtered from his antijewish consideration.
>
> Ted
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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