Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id EAA01239 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:28:00 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: frost.umd.edu: debivort owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:26:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Lawrence H. de Bivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> X-Sender: debivort@frost.umd.edu To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Imitation or transmission? In-Reply-To: <20000615012655.45093.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0006142324320.4831-100000@frost.umd.edu> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I use the term engineering in the same sense that Diana posted a couple of
days ago. It has nothing to do with 'information warfare', as you have
defined it, IMO.
- Lawrence
On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Montie S. wrote:
> What about day trading? Day trading firms here in the US aggressively
>promoted day trading as a means to make you wealthy. These same firms
>received fees for each transaction that was placed, so it was in their own
>economic self interest to promote day trading. The media even got involved
>and started raving about how easy it was to make it big in the stock market.
> Studies by security regulators have found that most day traders (75%)
>don't turn a profit. This, get rich quick, meme was engineered by the firms
>for the firms.
> Also, have you checked out Information Warfare? The following is a
>pretty good description of what IW is:
> "Information warfare is the offensive and defensive use of information
>and information systems to deny, exploit, corrupt, or destroy, an
>adversary's information, information-based processes, information systems,
>and computer-based networks while protecting one's own. Such actions are
>designed to achieve advantages over military or
>business adversaries."(Dr. Ivan Goldberg)
> I believe that this is very similar to what is called memetic
>engineering although it could be argued that psychological warfare is a much
>better fit with what has been defined for memetic engineering. Do you
>agree, disagree?
>
>Montie Schmiege
>
>
>From: "Joseph" <neohuman@goldenfuture.net>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
>Subject: RE: Imitation or transmission?
>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:20:20 -0400
>
>Diana Stevenson wrote:
>
> > I would call all this memetic engineering but maybe I've misunderstood
>the
> > term. Couldn't all propaganda and PR "spin" be regarded as the concious
> > transmission of memes? And what else is advertising and viral marketing?
>
>To my mind (and admittedly I'm an amateur and a newcomer to the list), these
>"single-shot" examples don't count as true "memetic engineering" because the
>memes involved weren't specifically engineered to self-replicate.
>
>That is, they rely on a single point of repetitive transmission in order to
>take root in the target audience. The memes in question weren't designed for
>self-replication, they weren't engineered to make themselves more efficient
>at rooting themselves in a host medium. (Memes that are engineered to
>specifically capitalize on these abilities would be "designer memes"; they
>deliberately hit the triggers that make them more likely to be reproduced.)
>I make the same argument in regards to most modern advertising; spitting out
>memes isn't memetic engineering, it's memetic propagation.
>
>True, elegant, memetic engineering would take advantage of the meme's
>natural tendency to be transmitted and form memeplexes with other memes
>(often ones that on the surface appear to be completely unrelated). National
>Socialism would seem to be an example of a nascent form of this; a complex
>of ideas-- racism, expansionist geopolitics, back-to-nature ideology,
>totalitarianism, the cult of the Leader, etc.-- that work together to
>reinforce one another and are chosen to promote their own replication. I say
>that National Socialism is only a nascent form, because elements of the
>memeplex weren't deliberately chosen, but were grafted on to the memeplex at
>various stages through "natural" means.
>
>I can't honestly think of a real-world example of the sort of memetic
>engineering I'm talking about, completely using designer memes to effect a
>particular outcome, but I can imagine one. Let's say you want to promote the
>"we should irradiate food" meme among a target population. Step one:
>introduce the "prepackaged food can be dangerous" meme (which hits the
>"danger" trigger). Give it time to penetrate. Step two: introduce the
>"radiation can be safe" meme-- completely unconnected to food, irradiation,
>or anything else-- and give it time to penetrate. Step three: introduce the
>"food can be irradiated to make it safe" meme. When all three of the memes
>hit the same subject-- food is dangerous, radiation is safe, food can be
>irradiated-- they combine to form the "we should irradiate food" meme.
>
>I realize it's a crude example, but hopefully it illustrates what I would
>mean by the difference between "mere" advertising and true memetic
>engineering. Advertising presents a single meme which relies on repetition
>for reproduction, while memetic engineering uses designer memes that more
>efficiently replicate themselves and self-organizing memeplexes (and ideally
>a combination of the two) to achieve the desired outcome.
>
>Joseph
>
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
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>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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