Re: memetics-digest V1 #1299

From: Scott Chase (ecphoric@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed 05 Mar 2003 - 07:17:26 GMT

  • Next message: joedees@bellsouth.net: "Re: memetics-digest V1 #1299"

    >From: joedees@bellsouth.net
    >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    >Subject: Re: memetics-digest V1 #1299
    >Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 01:00:27 -0600
    >
    >
    > > >From: "Grant Callaghan" <grantc4@hotmail.com>
    > > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > > >Subject: Re: memetics-digest V1 #1299
    > > >Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 07:44:21 -0800
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > >> If you reproduced one of the artifacts
    > > >left by an Indian tribe to the degree that it couldn't be
    > > >distinguished from the original, wouldn't you have received the
    > > >information contained in the making of it?
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >>No. Please explain how I could? Xerox is not culture.
    > > >
    > > >I didn't see where anybody claimed that it was. On the other hand,
    > > >xerox is an intimate part of modern culture.
    > > >
    > > >But if you were talking about an artifact such as a clay bowl or a
    > > >stone ax head, for example, and you went out and gathered the same
    > > >kind of clay and formed that clay in the same way and decorated it
    > > >with the same designs and fired it at the same temperature, you would
    > > >have learned a thing or two about how the tribe accomplished the task
    > > >themselves.
    > > >
    > > >There are anthropologists today who study the art of working stone to
    > > > produce the same artifacts they find in the earth in order to
    > > >understand the culture that produced them. I guess you would say
    > > >they are wasting their time and aren't likely to learn anything about
    > > > that culture.
    > > >
    > > >As you might guess, I disagree
    > > >
    > > All the work they do is valuable, but wouldn't you agree that there
    > > are limits on what can be gained? It's kinda like the fosil record,
    > > there's stuff that's been found and some details fleshed out but still
    > > much presently unknown and possibly lost forever.
    > >
    > > With artifacts am I right in asumng that lots of stuff doesn't stick
    > > around long? Leave a piece of paper with writing in a marsh somewhere
    > > and come back in a decade. I've seen rceipts in my desk that after a
    > > relatively short perion of time are unintellible due to yellow or ink
    > > fade. How well do wooden artifacts hold up compared to stone or metal?
    > > And let's not forget how word of mouth may die with those who spoke of
    > > it and how artifacts are only part of the story. Somme dude named
    > > Umbojimbo may have possessed a stone axe long ago, but without
    > > critical compenents of his cultural milieu, how much can you
    > > extrapolate about Umbojimbo and his pals and their culture in general?
    > > The artiacts found are an index to what their culture was, but not the
    > > whole story, something washed away by the tides of history as it
    > > marches along. Who was Umbojimbo? You may find some of his artifacts
    > > and maybe his skull or femur, but what do you really know about him?
    > >
    >This argument is kinda like saying that unless exact genetic replication
    >occurs, that the theory of evolution is flawed. But it is precisely the
    >natural selection between natural occurring deviances that allows for
    >evolution to occur. The difference is that, in memetics, those deviations
    >(mutations) may be intended, and indeed engineered - as can be the
    >selection.
    >
    I was referring to limitations of using artificats to extrapolate about the culture from which these artifacts came. I have knoe idea what you're getting at in relation to what I wrote, but would point out that wth evolution selection isn't the whole story. Maybe you like to jump to conclusions based on simplified information.

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