RE: World opinion survey

From: Scott Chase (ecphoric@hotmail.com)
Date: Sun 08 Dec 2002 - 00:33:33 GMT

  • Next message: joedees@bellsouth.net: "RE: World opinion survey"

    >From: joedees@bellsouth.net
    >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    >Subject: RE: World opinion survey
    >Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 12:16:53 -0600
    >
    > > At 01:06 AM 7/12/02 -0600, you wrote:
    > > >>
    > > >> Joe's memeset said:
    > > >> >Israel is kinda like the modern Berlin, except, instead of being a
    > > >> >democratic city surrounded by hostile Communist totalitarian
    > > >> >regimes, it is a tiny democratic nation surrounded by hostile
    > > >> >Islamofascist totalitarian regimes.
    > > >> >>
    > > >>
    > > >> Jeremy's memeset's reply:
    > > >> Funny, I thought that their longest boundary was with the
    > > >> Mediteranian Sea. This is followed by Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and an
    > > >> occupied section of Syria. Of these, the Med is sometimes hostile
    > > >> but as far as I know it is atheistic, Jordan is US friendly, Egypt
    > > >> is moderate, Lebanon (part Christian) just wants peace and quiet
    > > >> and Syria would like the Golan back thanks.
    > > >>
    > >
    > > Joe's memeset replied:
    > > >Many governments in the area, including Iraq and Iran, would like to
    > > >soo Israel disappear. This is also true of many of the citizenry in
    > > >the nations you just named. Weapons come to the Gaxa Strip via
    > > >tunnels from Egypt, and Lebanon is a staging area for Hizbullah
    > > >attacks, with Syria's acquiescence. The Lebanese, Egyptian and
    > > >Syrian media are extremely hostile to Israel, and the Jordanian media
    > > >is not much better.
    > > >>
    > >
    > > Jeremy's memeset again:
    > > OK Joe, I'm catching on now. Your phrase, "surrounded by hostile
    > > Islamofascist
    > > totalitarian regimes", in the way you use it, is more of a creative
    > > rhetorical style than actual fact. The factual content of your post,
    > > as I see it, is: 1) Fundamentalist Islamic Nation States, who don't
    > > share actual boundaries with Israel (but are threatened because they
    > > are a part of what fundamentalist Jews think of as the Greater Israel)
    > >
    >As has been said before, the "Greater Israel" canard is a false Islamicist
    >propaganda line, which you seem to have fallen for.
    >
    No. The "Nile to Euphrates" notion might be an Arabist canard. If I'm not mistaken, the Revisionist Zionist right wingers and religious nationalist tend toward the Greater Israel vision, which mostly centers on the West Bank
    (Judea and Samaria included). Lawry can correct me if I'm wrong, but those on the Jabotinskyian Revisionist side of Zionism took offense to Britain carving the original Palestine mandate into Palestine and Transjordan. This effectively took the East Bank out of the picture for the future Judenstaat.

    Judea and Samaria are integral to Eretz Yisrael. The Hashemites used to have control over the West Bank, before the Soviets egged Nasser on with that false report of Israeli troop movements toward the Syrian border, setting up a chain of events that resulted in Israel's launching a massive pre-emptive blitzkrieg on the Egyptians, wiping their air force out before they knew what was happening.
    >
    >The fact that Israel
    >returned the Sinai to Egypt and is negotiating to return the Golan
    >Heights to Syria belies the smear. You have obviously been infected by
    >the "Greater Israel" meme.
    >
    Will Israel ever give up the West Bank? Will she dismantle the settlements, such as begrudgingly happened with the Sinai was returned to Egypt, and allow Palestinians to erect a full fledged state in all of the West Bank. What would Gush Emunim and the religious nationalists think of that move if it were to occur?

    If you read Avi Shlaim's _The Iron Wall_ you would see that there is a Greater Israel vision at play. A "meme" perhaps, but not imaginary. This ideological mindset could be one of many factors behind Israeli intransigence in regards to the future of the West Bank and its Palestinian Arab population.

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