From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Sun 17 Nov 2002 - 04:54:05 GMT
> Hi, Joe,
> No, it won't do. Regretfully, this is not a primary source. An actual
> transcript of the tape (like the one I just posted in an email to this
> list) would be.
>
> But let us look at the relevant part of it: 'calling' upon Americans
> to convert to Islam is a far cry from demand that they do so or face
> terrorist attacks. When a Christian minister called upon me to become
> reborn, he was not threatening me with death if I do not do so. And in
> your text there is nothing to this effect, either.
>
> So again, I ask for a primary source, and one that specifically states
> that bin Laden, or any other terrorist, for that matter, is demanding
> that Americans convert to Islam and threatening terrorism if we don't.
>
> Joe, thank you for trying with the source you did give here. I am not
> trying to make things difficult for you in insisting on primary
> sources: this matter is so contentious, and so many bits of nonsense
> are being absorbed as truth by the American public, that the only way
> we can break the back of these toxic memes to by being rigorous.
>
> Of course, toxic memes are propagating throughout the Muslim and other
> parts of the world, too. I am only focusing on those that infect some
> of our list members, and do wish that some of our Jewish and Muslim
> and other friends were here, speaking for themselves. In the
> meantime, we should address the toxic memes that affect our own
> society first, or else everything we do with regard to the rest of the
> world will be poisoned and dysfunctional.
>
> Best regards,
> Lawry
>
Oh, puh-LEEEZE!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
> Behalf Of joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002
> 10:38 PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: The terrorism meme
>
> > As usual, Joe, you are long on lurid rhetoric and short on facts.
> > Specifically, now, what is your source for "converts to Islam"?
> >
> > And please, no more of your goofy-woofy Daniel Pipes. How about a
> > primary source to this specific threat, seeing as you are so sure of
> > this?
> >
> > Ah, Morris Dees....a great man.
> >
> Will this do?
>
> http://www.austin360.com/aas/news/ap/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V4216.AP-
> Attacks-Al-Qaid.html Statement Warns of More Attacks By ALAA SHAHINE
> Associated Press Writer DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP)--A statement
> attributed to al-Qaida threatened more attacks in New York and
> Washington unless America stops supporting Israel and converts to
> Islam, an Arab TV reporter who received the unsigned document said
> Saturday. Yosri Fouda, correspondent for the satellite station
> Al-Jazeera, told The Associated Press he received the six-page
> document on Wednesday. That was a day after the TV station broadcast
> an audiotape purportedly made by Osama bin Laden. Fouda, who is known
> for good contacts within al-Qaida, would only say that the statement
> came from his sources with the group. But he insisted he was certain
> it came from the terrorist movement's leadership. Fouda, speaking by
> telephone from London, said the statement called on Americans to stop
> supporting Israel and other governments that ``oppress'' Muslims or
> face more attacks. The statement also called on Americans to convert
> to Islam, he said. Fouda quoted the statement as saying: ``Stop your
> support for Israel against the Palestinians, for Russians against the
> Chechens ... for corrupt leaders in our countries ... (and) leave us
> alone or expect us in Washington and New York.'' He added the
> statement demanded U.S. troops leave the Arabian Peninsula, and
> justified the killings of American civilians because they pay taxes
> that finance military operations. There was no immediate reaction from
> Washington. No officials were available for comment at the Pentagon or
> the National Security Council Saturday afternoon. A report on the
> statement as described by Fouda was carried in The Sunday Times of
> London. Fouda is a prominent Arab television journalist who has broken
> several important stories about al-Qaida. In September, Al-Jazeera
> broadcast Fouda's interviews with two top al-Qaida operatives hiding
> in Pakistan, Ramzi Binalshibh and Khaled Sheik Mohammed. Binalshibh
> was arrested in Karachi, Pakistan, shortly after the broadcast and was
> transferred to U.S. custody. Fouda said the statement also referred to
> the crisis between the United States and Iraq as one more reason to
> attack Americans. ``You are placing Muslims under siege in Iraq, where
> children die every day. Oh, how weird that you don't care for 1.5
> million Iraqi children who died under siege, but when 3,000 of your
> compatriots died, the whole world was shaken,'' Fouda quoted the
> statement as saying. Meanwhile, a militant Islamic Web site that
> carries news about al-Qaida has dismissed as lies a report that a
> senior member of the terror group is in U.S. custody. U.S. officials
> in Washington said Friday that one of the leaders of al- Qaida had
> been detained in a foreign country and handed over to U.S.
> authorities. The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity,
> declined to identify the detainee, but said he was not al-Qaida leader
> Osama bin Laden, his chief depity, his son or the suspected mastermind
> of the Sept. 11 attacks. The site scoffed at the U.S. officials'
> refusal to name the detainee. ``Maybe they fear to announce a certain
> name, and al-Qaida would issue a denial so their (the U.S.) situation
> would become worse,'' it said. > > -----Original Message----- > From:
> fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On > Behalf Of
> joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:54 > PM To:
> memetics@mmu.ac.uk; fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: The >
> terrorism meme > > The latest threat is one of massive attacks
> upon both > Washington and New York, unless the US both ends its
> support of > Israel and converts to Islam. A show of hands to
> demonstrate how many > people here think that such an ass-kiss kowtow
> bowing is likely? Hmmm? > I didn't think so. Nor do I think that Al
> Quaeda considers it > likely. What that message means to me is that
> some massive attack or > other (although not necessarily in those
> particular US locales) is > already working its way through the
> pipeline. In which case the US > retaliation for such a "spectacular"
> terrorist action would be a > devastating whirlwind which they, and
> the people among whom they, with > consent, hide, would
> catastrophically reap. > > Lawry, > > No matter > how much it costs
> us, I just can't see us giving up our > culture and > accepting theirs
> instead. That's what they are asking of > us, and > they're not
> asking politely. I suspect we will be more likely > to > wipe them
> off the face of the earth before we give in to that kind > > of
> blackmail. We, as a society, don't accept offers we can't refuse. > >
> What they see as superiority based on the fact that they made the > >
> Russians back down is an illusion based on the fact that the Soviet >
> > Union was in the process of disintigrating at the time they were > >
> driven out of Afghanistan. The West in the form of North America, > >
> Europe and the Far East are not in that condition. If we get together
> > > and take on all of Islam, the Muslims don't stand a chance. > > I
> > hope it doesn't come to that, but it looks more like that is where >
> > we're headed every day. The Muslim countries are becoming more > >
> religious every day rather than more secular. If that trend > >
> continues, Israel may repeat itself on a worldwide basis. All Muslims
> > > will suffer for the actions of a few. And many Europeans and > >
> Americans will suffer along with them. You can see the governments of
> > > Western countries getting antsy already. > > Every Muslim now gets
> a > second look and they have become the focus of > all the forces of
> the > government, such as the CIA, FBI, INS, local > police forces,
> etc., > etc. People will no longer want to rent or sell > to Muslims
> because > they will be afraid of what it will do to property > values.
> All > banks accounts with Muslim names will be scrutinized more >
> closely > and seized if there is any doubt about where the money came
> > from or > where it might be going. > > It's unAmerican, but so is
> Islam. We > can't tell who in that group are > our friends and who
> are our > enemies. It will be like WWII when the > Japanese who
> joined the > military were sent to war in Europe and had to > fight
> twice as hard > as other Americans just to prove their loyalty. >
> Nobody trusted them > to fight in the Pacific. Only after the defeat
> of > Japan were they > grudgingly accepted back into our society. > >
> Even that sniper who > turned Wash. D.C. on it's head had a Muslim
> name. > I guess he was a > convert. But that will now be a danger
> sign that > brings greater > scrutiny. Blacks who have adopted Muslim
> names will be > treated with > even greater prejudice. Society is
> reactionary in > nature. The > headlines tell us what to fear and
> fear causes us to > react > irrationally. The more terror we see
> directed at us the less > > rational we will react toward people who
> have Muslim names or a Muslim > > appearance. > > Anyway, that's the
> way I see things going. What I > don't see us doing > is changing our
> way of life to fit into the way > of the Muslims. > > Cheers, > >
> Grant > > > > > >Grant, I would > generally agree with the point you
> make, with one > >distinction: > 'terror' has a profound psychological
> effect, whereas > >'normal' > death tolls on the road (or from
> smoking, with even bigger > >numbers > that the ones you cite), don't.
> > > > >Israel and Palestine are > instructive. Roughly, the Israelis
> as a > >percentage of their > population are suffering one WTC-sized
> event per > >week. They are > inflicting a WTC-sized event of the
> Palestinians at > >the rate of 3 > per week. Neither is giving in to
> the terror. Have > >they got used > to it? Have their societies,
> generally, made the > >psychological > adjustments needed so that this
> becomes 'normal.' As > >long as > terror does not seem normal, a
> society may go to > >extraordinary > lengths to 'protect' itself, such
> as the US has done, > >with huge > financial outlays, a compromise of
> civil liberties (being > >radically > compounded by the Homeland
> Security bill, extraordinary > >daily > disruption (especially for
> travelers and visitors and employees > >of > federal facilities), and
> the creation of an increasingly Orwellian > > >domestic atmosphere.
> And that was a single event. We could count > > >Oklahoma City as a
> second, Kasi, and the first WTC attack as other > > >events, but the
> point holds, I think. Our reaction has been huge; in > > >Palestine
> and Israel the reaction per event may be more modest. > Your >
> >thoughts? > > > >Cheers, > >Lawry > > > >-----Original > Message-----
> > >From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk > [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
> > >Behalf Of Grant Callaghan Sent: > Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:38
> AM > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk > Subject: Re: The terrorism meme > > > >
> >The fact is that the real > blame for the deaths is not the terrorist
> > > >his fault, the blame > lies by the US government consequently
> staying > > >in areas where > they don 't belong. Terrorism is equal
> placing bombs > > >and setting > up psychological pressure. > > > >My
> philosophy is that people are > responsible for their own actions. >
> >Therefore, they, themselves, are > to blame for the damage they do to
> > >others. If I kill someone it's > not G. W. Bush's fault unless he
> sent > >me out there to do it. > > > > >The Muslim terrorists just
> don't understand the magnitude of the > > >problem. They don't realize
> that we're willing to sacrifice over > > >40,000 Americans a year to
> keep our cars and the way of life they > > >represent. If you count
> the injured, it's over 100,000. The losses > > >at the WTC were a
> drop in the bucket by comparison. If 40 thousand > > >deaths a year
> won't make us change our ways, the puny efforts of a > > >few bombings
> aren't going to do it. They are just a small increase > > >in the
> number of accidents we are willing to put up with. > > > > >Cheers, >
> > > >Grant > > > >
> >_________________________________________________________________ > >
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