RE: The terrorism meme

From: Lawrence DeBivort (debivort@umd5.umd.edu)
Date: Sun 17 Nov 2002 - 04:56:51 GMT

  • Next message: joedees@bellsouth.net: "RE: The terrorism meme"

    Hi, Joe, No, it won't do. Regretfully, this is not a primary source. An actual transcript of the tape (like the one I just posted in an email to this list) would be.

    But let us look at the relevant part of it: 'calling' upon Americans to convert to Islam is a far cry from demand that they do so or face terrorist attacks. When a Christian minister called upon me to become reborn, he was not threatening me with death if I do not do so. And in your text there is nothing to this effect, either.

    So again, I ask for a primary source, and one that specifically states that bin Laden, or any other terrorist, for that matter, is demanding that Americans convert to Islam and threatening terrorism if we don't.

    Joe, thank you for trying with the source you did give here. I am not trying to make things difficult for you in insisting on primary sources: this matter is so contentious, and so many bits of nonsense are being absorbed as truth by the American public, that the only way we can break the back of these toxic memes to by being rigorous.

    Of course, toxic memes are propagating throughout the Muslim and other parts of the world, too. I am only focusing on those that infect some of our list members, and do wish that some of our Jewish and Muslim and other friends were here, speaking for themselves. In the meantime, we should address the toxic memes that affect our own society first, or else everything we do with regard to the rest of the world will be poisoned and dysfunctional.

    Best regards, Lawry

    -----Original Message----- From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf Of joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:38 PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: The terrorism meme

    > As usual, Joe, you are long on lurid rhetoric and short on facts.
    > Specifically, now, what is your source for "converts to Islam"?
    >
    > And please, no more of your goofy-woofy Daniel Pipes. How about a
    > primary source to this specific threat, seeing as you are so sure of
    > this?
    >
    > Ah, Morris Dees....a great man.
    >
    Will this do?

    http://www.austin360.com/aas/news/ap/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V4216.AP- Attacks-Al-Qaid.html Statement Warns of More Attacks By ALAA SHAHINE Associated Press Writer DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP)--A statement attributed to al-Qaida threatened more attacks in New York and Washington unless America stops supporting Israel and converts to Islam, an Arab TV reporter who received the unsigned document said Saturday. Yosri Fouda, correspondent for the satellite station Al-Jazeera, told The Associated Press he received the six-page document on Wednesday. That was a day after the TV station broadcast an audiotape purportedly made by Osama bin Laden. Fouda, who is known for good contacts within al-Qaida, would only say that the statement came from his sources with the group. But he insisted he was certain it came from the terrorist movement's leadership. Fouda, speaking by telephone from London, said the statement called on Americans to stop supporting Israel and other governments that
    ``oppress'' Muslims or face more attacks. The statement also called on Americans to convert to Islam, he said. Fouda quoted the statement as saying: ``Stop your support for Israel against the Palestinians, for Russians against the Chechens ... for corrupt leaders in our countries ... (and) leave us alone or expect us in Washington and New York.'' He added the statement demanded U.S. troops leave the Arabian Peninsula, and justified the killings of American civilians because they pay taxes that finance military operations. There was no immediate reaction from Washington. No officials were available for comment at the Pentagon or the National Security Council Saturday afternoon. A report on the statement as described by Fouda was carried in The Sunday Times of London. Fouda is a prominent Arab television journalist who has broken several important stories about al-Qaida. In September, Al-Jazeera broadcast Fouda's interviews with two top al-Qaida operatives hiding in Pakistan, Ramzi Binalshibh and Khaled Sheik Mohammed. Binalshibh was arrested in Karachi, Pakistan, shortly after the broadcast and was transferred to U.S. custody. Fouda said the statement also referred to the crisis between the United States and Iraq as one more reason to attack Americans.
    ``You are placing Muslims under siege in Iraq, where children die every day. Oh, how weird that you don't care for 1.5 million Iraqi children who died under siege, but when 3,000 of your compatriots died, the whole world was shaken,'' Fouda quoted the statement as saying. Meanwhile, a militant Islamic Web site that carries news about al-Qaida has dismissed as lies a report that a senior member of the terror group is in U.S. custody. U.S. officials in Washington said Friday that one of the leaders of al- Qaida had been detained in a foreign country and handed over to U.S. authorities. The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, declined to identify the detainee, but said he was not al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden, his chief depity, his son or the suspected mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks. The site scoffed at the U.S. officials' refusal to name the detainee.
    ``Maybe they fear to announce a certain name, and al-Qaida would issue a denial so their (the U.S.) situation would become worse,'' it said.
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
    > Behalf Of joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:54
    > PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk; fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: The
    > terrorism meme
    >
    > The latest threat is one of massive attacks upon both
    > Washington and New York, unless the US both ends its support of
    > Israel and converts to Islam. A show of hands to demonstrate how many
    > people here think that such an ass-kiss kowtow bowing is likely? Hmmm?
    > I didn't think so. Nor do I think that Al Quaeda considers it
    > likely. What that message means to me is that some massive attack or
    > other (although not necessarily in those particular US locales) is
    > already working its way through the pipeline. In which case the US
    > retaliation for such a "spectacular" terrorist action would be a
    > devastating whirlwind which they, and the people among whom they, with
    > consent, hide, would catastrophically reap. > > Lawry, > > No matter
    > how much it costs us, I just can't see us giving up our > culture and
    > accepting theirs instead. That's what they are asking of > us, and
    > they're not asking politely. I suspect we will be more likely > to
    > wipe them off the face of the earth before we give in to that kind >
    > of blackmail. We, as a society, don't accept offers we can't refuse.
    > > What they see as superiority based on the fact that they made the >
    > Russians back down is an illusion based on the fact that the Soviet >
    > Union was in the process of disintigrating at the time they were >
    > driven out of Afghanistan. The West in the form of North America, >
    > Europe and the Far East are not in that condition. If we get together
    > > and take on all of Islam, the Muslims don't stand a chance. > > I
    > hope it doesn't come to that, but it looks more like that is where >
    > we're headed every day. The Muslim countries are becoming more >
    > religious every day rather than more secular. If that trend >
    > continues, Israel may repeat itself on a worldwide basis. All Muslims
    > > will suffer for the actions of a few. And many Europeans and >
    > Americans will suffer along with them. You can see the governments of
    > > Western countries getting antsy already. > > Every Muslim now gets a
    > second look and they have become the focus of > all the forces of the
    > government, such as the CIA, FBI, INS, local > police forces, etc.,
    > etc. People will no longer want to rent or sell > to Muslims because
    > they will be afraid of what it will do to property > values. All
    > banks accounts with Muslim names will be scrutinized more > closely
    > and seized if there is any doubt about where the money came > from or
    > where it might be going. > > It's unAmerican, but so is Islam. We
    > can't tell who in that group are > our friends and who are our
    > enemies. It will be like WWII when the > Japanese who joined the
    > military were sent to war in Europe and had to > fight twice as hard
    > as other Americans just to prove their loyalty. > Nobody trusted them
    > to fight in the Pacific. Only after the defeat of > Japan were they
    > grudgingly accepted back into our society. > > Even that sniper who
    > turned Wash. D.C. on it's head had a Muslim name. > I guess he was a
    > convert. But that will now be a danger sign that > brings greater
    > scrutiny. Blacks who have adopted Muslim names will be > treated with
    > even greater prejudice. Society is reactionary in > nature. The
    > headlines tell us what to fear and fear causes us to > react
    > irrationally. The more terror we see directed at us the less >
    > rational we will react toward people who have Muslim names or a Muslim
    > > appearance. > > Anyway, that's the way I see things going. What I
    > don't see us doing > is changing our way of life to fit into the way
    > of the Muslims. > > Cheers, > > Grant > > > > > >Grant, I would
    > generally agree with the point you make, with one > >distinction:
    > 'terror' has a profound psychological effect, whereas > >'normal'
    > death tolls on the road (or from smoking, with even bigger > >numbers
    > that the ones you cite), don't. > > > >Israel and Palestine are
    > instructive. Roughly, the Israelis as a > >percentage of their
    > population are suffering one WTC-sized event per > >week. They are
    > inflicting a WTC-sized event of the Palestinians at > >the rate of 3
    > per week. Neither is giving in to the terror. Have > >they got used
    > to it? Have their societies, generally, made the > >psychological
    > adjustments needed so that this becomes 'normal.' As > >long as
    > terror does not seem normal, a society may go to > >extraordinary
    > lengths to 'protect' itself, such as the US has done, > >with huge
    > financial outlays, a compromise of civil liberties (being > >radically
    > compounded by the Homeland Security bill, extraordinary > >daily
    > disruption (especially for travelers and visitors and employees > >of
    > federal facilities), and the creation of an increasingly Orwellian >
    > >domestic atmosphere. And that was a single event. We could count >
    > >Oklahoma City as a second, Kasi, and the first WTC attack as other >
    > >events, but the point holds, I think. Our reaction has been huge; in
    > > >Palestine and Israel the reaction per event may be more modest.
    > Your > >thoughts? > > > >Cheers, > >Lawry > > > >-----Original
    > Message----- > >From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
    > [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On > >Behalf Of Grant Callaghan Sent:
    > Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:38 AM > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > Subject: Re: The terrorism meme > > > > >The fact is that the real
    > blame for the deaths is not the terrorist > > >his fault, the blame
    > lies by the US government consequently staying > > >in areas where
    > they don 't belong. Terrorism is equal placing bombs > > >and setting
    > up psychological pressure. > > > >My philosophy is that people are
    > responsible for their own actions. > >Therefore, they, themselves, are
    > to blame for the damage they do to > >others. If I kill someone it's
    > not G. W. Bush's fault unless he sent > >me out there to do it. > > >
    > >The Muslim terrorists just don't understand the magnitude of the >
    > >problem. They don't realize that we're willing to sacrifice over >
    > >40,000 Americans a year to keep our cars and the way of life they >
    > >represent. If you count the injured, it's over 100,000. The losses
    > > >at the WTC were a drop in the bucket by comparison. If 40 thousand
    > > >deaths a year won't make us change our ways, the puny efforts of a
    > > >few bombings aren't going to do it. They are just a small increase
    > > >in the number of accidents we are willing to put up with. > > >
    > >Cheers, > > > >Grant > > >
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