From: Bruce Howlett (brucehowlett@northnet.com.au)
Date: Mon 04 Nov 2002 - 22:01:37 GMT
I suppose my studies in change management have convinced me of the near impossibility of manipulating culture in general. It is only possible in closed environments and then still difficult, and I would suggest impossible at individual meme level. For example: A change in the attitude of staff is required to implement a new overtime roster system successfully. Strategy: use a series of language changes to facilitate desired time. Instead of "overtime" we will substitute the term "bonustime"; instead of "overtime roster" we will substitute the term "Extra Pay List"; etc. The single meme approach, say, "this is good for you 'cause the boss really cares", is not likely to work.
The other phenomena which eliminates choice is the "belief" that results from a meme. A belief is held or exists sometimes in complete conflict with other beliefs held by an individual, and as far as I can tell has little or no rational basis, which is why arguing about beliefs is so futile.
I would also challenge that we "choose our subcultures". This may happen at a very general level as a result of choosing to live in a particular geographic location, choosing to mix with a particular crowd, etc., but what influenced you originally to choose that location or crowd? I would suggest memetic (cultural) influences preceded the observable "choice" process.
Regards,
Bruce Howlett
----- Original Message -----
From: joedees@bellsouth.net
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk ; fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: electric meme bombs
>
> >My definition of memes requires the ability to consciously choose to
> >or not to either receive or transmit at least some of them, on the
> >basis of their meaning.
> Sorry Joe, that's the same as saying you consciously choose the
> culture you live in. Even using lateral thinking techniques and
> assuming one is able to separate oneself sufficiently to view the
> process objectively, I doubt you could achieve this level of choice.
> That does not mean that you "get" every meme that comes along, you
> will have developed immunities to lots of them.
>
No, I said *some* of them; I do believe that we in part do consciously
mold our cultures, or at least choose our subcultures, and in part we
don't.
>
> Regards,
> Bruce Howlett
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: joedees@bellsouth.net
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk ; fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 2:55 PM
> Subject: Re: electric meme bombs
>
> > > >
> > >These cues are innate and generally the same or extremely similar
> > >for conspecifics within a species, whereas human communication is
> > >arbitrary and by mutual convention, and unlike genetically
> > >hardwired behavior, must be created, learned and taught.
> > > >
> >
> > I never said they had culture. Merely that they communicate and that
> > what they communicate influences the behavior of the other members
> > of the species. If your definition of a meme requires human
> > behavior, then of course other species won't be able to meet the
> > test. But will your definition meet the test of acceptance by the
> > majority of your peers?
> >
> My definition of memes requires the ability to consciously choose to
> or not to either receive or transmit at least some of them, on the
> basis of their meaning. > > Grant > > >
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===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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