Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA00945 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 22 May 2000 19:57:40 +0100 Message-ID: <39293C35.3033A838@mediaone.net> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:55:01 +0100 From: chuck <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Why are human brains bigger? References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1C9@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> So what are all those organisms that (probably) don't have beliefs, like
> insects, doing?
I think insects are probably different. As I understand it, individual genetic
structures are quite close - aren't some sort of clones?
>
>
> The implicit point is that beliefs are not required for survival per se, so
> the question is, why do humans need beliefs?
Vincent - we never resolved the question of beliefs. As I said before, if
beliefs are defined as an emotional state that pushes the individual to an
action, then animals have beliefs. That, of course, seems over generalized. But
on the other end of a contuum is religion which supposedly also leads to certain
behaviors and it's quite conscious. But that has its problems too because what
do we do with the fact that a lot of decisions are made by the lower brain and
then passed to the conscious brain that then gives the illusion that the
decision was made there! And what do we do about something in the middle we call
intuitive physics - where you definitely have a belief in gravity - which
animals have.
Frankly, I can't imagine that individual animals don't have some way to monitor
their motivations and how they are different from other animals.
>
>
> The biggest problem, as I think I've said, is that only humans seem to
> express beliefs in external ways, through ritual essentially, and there
> seems to be a clear point in human evolution when ritual emerged. So what
> was is that created the conditions in which natural selection favoured
> humans that had beliefs, which it undoubtedly appears to have done?
> Moreover, what were the triggers that turned internal beliefs into shared
> ritual behaviours?
>
It seems to me that humans may simply have more complex ways of doing it. Have
you read Victor Turner's stuff on ritual? He is an anthropologist. He shows that
rituals are ways of inducing what he calls liminal states, which I think are
special psychological states that enable people to act in more cooperative ways.
I am not sure how he defines it because it's been many years since I read him.
As to the clear point when humans had beliefs, if animals do have beliefs, then
it wouldn't be so clear what you mean. Besides, rituals themselves are designed
to induce cooperative behavior, and that in itself would have survival value.
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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