Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA02201 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 18:43:09 GMT From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Rumsfeld Says He May Drop New Office of Influence: Israel and Palestine Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:16:42 -0500 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAIEDMCNAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.20020308180957.0070b4c4@pophost.nor.com.au> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Greetings, Jeremy,
I haven't heard about Israel White. I'd be interested in his arguments, as
of course religious Zionists would assert that they are implementing 'God's
Plan.'
I do recall some disagreement, especially before Hitler's depredations and
the establishment of Israel, between those Jews who felt that it was
appropriate for Jews to 'aid' God implement His plan, and those who felt
that Jews and Israel would be reunited when Jews had earned it, or at least
on a schedule determined by God. Non-religious Zionists, of course, weren't
concerned with this, though with Chaim Weizmann there cam a general sense
within Zionism that only Palestine, due to its religious mythology, would
provide the magnet needed for European Jews to settle there. Alternative
settlement places, ranging from Uganda to Argentina, were consequently
turned down by the mainline Zionist organizations. The metic battles
engaged in this debate were titanic; Herzl, the author of the seminal "The
Jewish State" was defeated during the course of these battles.
Yes, Jews and Arabs lived well with each other in Palestine until the time
came when Jewish immigration and settlement in Palestine began to overwhelm
the political status quo and developed irredentist tendencies. (I am not
sure the right term here is, 'Arab.' Palestinian Arabs were composed of
Muslims (predominantly) and Christians. There was always an ambiguity within
the Jewish community (and still is): does the term 'Jewish' have religious,
political, and/or ethnic taxonomic significance? At different times and
places, and depending on who is answering the question, it has had all three
of these significances. Easy to get confused!
I say they, Jews and non-Jewish communities in Palestine, lived well
together, but it was like other different sectarian groups: there were
moments of tension over conflicting religious practices and sites, but in
the main, people of all sects lived well as neighbors under the Ottoman rule
and under the first few years of the British-governed League of Nations
mandate. It is also true that some early Zionist leaders knew felt that
someday there would be war with the Palestinians for the land (.e.g. Ben
Gurion as early as 1902), but I don't think that the general Jewish
immigrant population felt this way, nor did the Palestinians.
And I believe that the peoples of Israel and Palestine could return to live
as neighbors. Strange, I suppose, to hear anyone saying that now, but I do
believe it to be profoundly possible. There are a lot of good people on
both sides, and everyone is distressed by what is happening and the toll it
is taking on everyone. For this to happen, the memes that are presently at
work will have to evolve, which is why our discussion of the situation and
its different memetic interpretations on this list have been of such
interest to me.
Best regards,
Lawrence
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Jeremy Bradley
> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 2:10 AM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Rumsfeld Says He May Drop New Office of Influence: Israel
> and Palestine
>
>
> At 02:33 PM 7/03/02 -0500, you wrote:
> Snip.........>
> >I will continue these thoughts and turn to the makings of a
> solution in my
> >next email, under the new subject heading: "Toward a solution:
> Israel and
> >Palestine."
> >
> >Lawrence
> >
> Welcome back Lawrence
> I look forward to participating in a discussion of the memes involved in
> any potential solution.
> I listened to an interesting interview this morning on our Radio National.
> It was with a New York based anti-Zionist Rabbi, Israel White. He made it
> quite clear that Zionism was a political and economic force that was
> disobeying the word of God. He said, as you know, that until the advent of
> Zionism, Jews and Arabs lived in peace in Palestine. Do you know anything
> about him?
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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