Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA23342 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:17:54 GMT X-Originating-IP: [194.117.133.84] User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:10:25 +0000 Subject: Re: Rumsfeld Says... From: Steve Drew <srdrew_1@hotmail.com> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Message-ID: <B8AC0C10.2B3%srdrew_1@hotmail.com> In-Reply-To: <200203061159.LAA22574@alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2002 18:12:35.0382 (UTC) FILETIME=[7DE1F560:01C1C53A] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 19:05:26 -0800
> From: "Grant Callaghan" <grantc4@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Rumsfeld Says....
>
>> To: Jom-emit <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
>> Subject: Re: Rumsfeld Says....
>> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 22:18:05 +0000
>>
>>> Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:55:46 -0800
>>> From: "Grant Callaghan" <grantc4@hotmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Rumsfeld Says He May Drop New Office of Influence
>>
>>>> Hi Grant,
>>>>
>>>> I am sorry, but I can 't agree on this ! This is something completely
>> out
>>>> of context !
>>>> The bias where upon the Jews and the Palestinians now have to live
>> their
>>>> lives are NOT, and I repeat NOT of their own choosing !
>>>> The state of Israel was indicted in 1948 by others, not the Jews
>> neither
>>>> the Palestinians were involved in the proces.
>>>> Saying otherwise is being not intellectual honest !
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, you were correct saying that the US is resorting the same kind
>>>> of effects, and within the context of such a knowing how is it then
>>>> possible
>>>> that you write what you wrote !?
>>>> You have giving here the ultimate proof that the US, and all others I
>>>> suppose, is/ are stuck in the way of their thinking and handling.
>>>> And knowing that, what is holding you back to change all that, or is
>>>> that then a typical affect of the American way of life, keeping the
>> pro-
>>>> blems in space, so that you can ' act ' in an American way !?
>>>> Is that the bias of that ' great ' nation !? Pathetic...
>>>>
>>>> No offence intented,
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Kenneth
>>>>
>>> None taken, Kenneth. But are you saying the Jews and the Palestinians
>> have
>>> no control over what they are doing? That they have no choice? That
>> they
>>> could not use other means to solve their problems? If that's your
>> stance, I
>>> disagree completely. We are all responsible for our actions. No one is
>>> making the Jews build on land they ceded to the Palestinians after the
>> 6-day
>>> war. No one is making the Palestinians wrap themselves in explosives
>> and
>>> throw away their lives in a futile gesture. No one is making either
>> side
>>> choose a life for a life, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth as
>> their
>>> guiding philosophy.
>>
>> Indeed no one is, and i agree up to a point. However the habituated
>> cultural
>> memes that both sides have make any kind of decsision that is contrary to
>> these very difficult. Having looked at some of the work on conflict
>> resolution, as we have discussed earlier, to move to a situation of win win
>> is extremely hard. The people who argue for dialogue on both sides are
>> drowned out by the vengance meme of both sides.
>>>
>>> These are choices the people and the governments of the people have
>> chosen
>>> as the way to solve the problem of hanging on to land they both feel
>> belongs
>>> to them. They could choose to make rational decisions about what
>> belongs to
>>> whom and stick with those decisions in the face of outside pressure.
>> But
>>> they don't. And IMO that is the root of their problem. It's not what
>>> happens to you that counts -- it's what you choose to do about it. What
>>> they are doing about it is guaranteed to perpetuate the slaughter of
>>> innocents until their houses are all rubble and the people are too weary
>> and
>>> decimated to fight anymore. Neither Europe and America nor the Islamic
>>> states are making these decisions for them. IMO it's foolishness to
>> think
>>> they are. It's the memes they've adopted that guide their behavior.
>> Memes
>>> that go back thousands of years and continue to perpetuate themselves.
>>>
>>> No offence intended here, either.
>>
>> Exactly. Its the memes they have taken on board over time. Unfortunately,
>> once taken on they are dificult to lose. IMO it takes rational decisions to
>> make a choice. rational decisions are undermined by the emotional
>> attachment
>> that we attach to certain memes.
>>
>> BTW Europe, America and the Islamic states are making decisions for them by
>> the actions of groups within these states each of which are pushing their
>> own agendas at the respective governments. Israel would have a harder job
>> without F16's, as would the Palestinians without Iranian arms etc
>>
>> No flag waving here, as the UK Gov is probably up to something as well.
>>>
>>> Grant
>>
> Well, I can see there is little chance of us agreeing on anything here. My
> view is based on my concept of memes being something we choose to use and
> yours is based on people having no choice. They are stuck with the memes
> that infect them.
We do have a common ground. I did not say that people cannot choose, other
wise we'll be heading off into determinism country, etc. Once was enough.
People can choose and do choose, i agree. For me it is not the only option,
particularly when we talk about groups of meme, and also outside influences,
such as the persons emotional state and the cultural beliefs they are
brought up with.
> It doesn't matter, though. Neither you nor I have any
> influence over the people or their choices. The damage having already been
> done can't be undone, especially by people who are not making the decisions.
>
> Watching Bush and Hosni Mubarak stand up and repeat the same tired cliches
> they have spouted for years and months again today tells me more than
> anything else that there will be no end to the hostilities until the people
> who are killing each other tire of it and decide on their own to stop. They
> just have to realize that the attitude of "This is our land and we will not
> give up a single inch" will end with not a single inch left on either side
> that is worth defending.
Not too hopeful about that. However, this new movement in Israel that is
composed of soldiers who refuse to fight outside the 1967 boundaries may be
a start. Jonathon Friedland writing in the UK Guardian today thinks this is
something no one in Israel can ignore by abusing them as anti semite's or
traitors, as many of them are practicing jews, and decorated soldier. Is
there anything on the Palastinian side that is or could become a similar
voice of sanity is what needs to be looked at.
>
> Grant
Regards
Steve
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