Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id RAA10082 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 18 May 2000 17:45:37 +0100 Message-ID: <3923D882.90128383@mediaone.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:48:18 +0100 From: Chuck Palson <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1B5@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> Er, well thanks for clarifying your use of economics, but as to the other
> point I understand perfectly what a belief is, I want to know what you
> define as an act.
>
> If I threw a ball at you and you caught it, what would you need to believe
> in to attempt to catch it?
You would need to believe some intuitive physics - like gravity, inertia, and
their effect on the trajectory. I would imagine that some aspects of this might
be learned on the base of inborn intuitive physics. I don't know if there is any
reseach on this. But I do know that some intuitive physics is inborn.
I am puzzled by your "Er". I hope I am answering your question.
>
>
> If you mean act in a more detailed sense then explain. Otherwise, see
> Lawrence's point about flinching.
>
> Vincent
> > ----------
> > From: Chuck Palson
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 9:33 am
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> >
> >
> >
> > Vincent Campbell wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for the response, you don't answer my question about the process
> > of
> > > cultural change.
> > >
> > > See my points elsewhere on this list regarding suicide cults as
> > 'failures'.
> > >
> > > Sorry, more questions for you-
> > >
> > > You say acts require beliefs. How do animals 'act' when, as far as we
> > know,
> > > they don't have beliefs? I suppose what I'm aksing is what do you mean
> > by
> > > 'act'?
> >
> > I would think you are asking what do I mean by belief because that's the
> > important question. What is human belief? Pinker makes the good point that
> > most
> > of our mental processes don't have a linguistic expression; it's only when
> > it
> > gets into immediate memory - what we often call consciousness - that most
> > of can
> > access beliefs in linguistic form. I can say to myself, "I believe that
> > God
> > might punish me today if I don't go to church" or "My boss will fire me if
> > I am
> > late one more time." And we can write in books about our beliefs for
> > everyone to
> > see. But does that mean that beliefs need language and humans are the only
> > ones
> > who can have beliefs? Pinker says we have to put this "mentalese," as he
> > calls
> > it, into words to discuss the processes publically, but that is only a
> > convention.
> >
> > So, what ARE beliefs? Aren't they really just a strong disposition to act
> > under
> > certain circumstances? The difference with humans is perhaps only that we
> > can
> > plan into the future more, so we use language to communicate complex
> > planning to
> > others who may have to know our plans.
> >
> > There are experiments that show quite definitively that at the moment they
> > feel
> > they have made a conscious choice based on their beliefs, brain senseing
> > technology indicates that the decision has been already been made up to 1
> > second
> > previously -- a long time in terms of how fast nerve impulses travel -- in
> > the
> > lymbic system. I would have to say that animals must have some kind of
> > belief
> > structure; it's just basic to any life that must rely on complex learning
> > --
> > which many animals must have.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > You use the term 'economic consequences', but what do you mean by this?
> > >
> >
> > First "economic." It should be a term that emerges from evolutionary
> > theory, not
> > modern economic theory. The economy of a group is by this way of thinking
> > is all
> > the exchanges of goods and services. That includes all the favors, the
> > "insurance" we give each other in the form of "you do this for very big
> > thing
> > for me, and I will be there for any catastrophe for you, even if it's more
> > than
> > the approximate value it now has for me," the barter, etc. etc. Much of
> > the
> > economy of a group is never registered in the official paper economy if
> > the
> > group has such. That is the only evolutionary definition of economy that
> > makes
> > sense.
> >
> > So, can you see from this how anything you do will have economic
> > consequences?
> > Your beliefs will have direct economic consequences because it will
> > determine
> > how you act in various economic transactions.
> >
> > I understand that this definition is difficult because it's not as neat as
> > any
> > traditional definition. But the problem with the traditional definitions
> > is that
> > if you can't put an immediate number on it, it simply doesn't exist. With
> > my
> > evolutionary definition (which, by the way, some anthropologists thought
> > of and
> > worked with a bit many years ago) you don't have the luxury of leaving any
> > of
> > the economy out for narrow purposes. Instead, you have to figure out some
> > creative ways to study it that don't necessarily involve precise numbers
> > of all
> > transactions.
> >
> > >
> > > Vincent
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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